Journey of Faith DVDs

[_JustMe]

Interestingly, it is they who always bring up the subject so they can accuse me of being in a cult, being brainwashed, etc.

Uhuh, and of course there's no way that you could in fact be under a delusion about your religious beliefs, because, of course, you'd know, wouldn't you? Just like all the other people under the delusion that their various churches are true can all see clearly just how wrong they are. But, of course, there's no chance this could happen to you, now is there? No, no chance at all.

I think there's a pretty good chance someday you're going to snap out of this inflated perception of your own cleverness and conviction, take a good look around you, and feel pretty damn sheepish. When this happens to you, don't sweat it too hard, bro. Just remember, it happened to the rest of us too.

Thanks for your concern Korihor, but I am quite happy with my beliefs and understanding.

[_beastie]

I have many wonderful family members who are not Mormon. Although I am careful to not judge them personally, or argue with them and strive with them causing many hurt feelings, I still find it upsets them because I am at least truthful with them about my research into the Book of Mormon as being authentic. Rather than hiding it, and living, as it were, in a lie about my beliefs, I share them honestly, but tell them they don't have to believe in my way of thinking. When I defend the Book of Mormon, Book of Abraham, I take it in the teeth from them. They accuse me of all sorts of lies like I am trying to force them to believe, etc., etc. I force no one, but I sure don't hide the fact that what I research is supportive of the scriptures, and I share that information with others, no matter what their own beliefs. Interestingly, it is they who always bring up the subject so they can accuse me of being in a cult, being brainwashed, etc.

Just in case you are actually insinuating that I'm lying about my lack of beliefs, you read a lot of erroneous information into my statement.

I formally resigned from the church around ten years ago. When I did so, I wrote a letter to my family, my bishop, and my stake president explaining exactly why I was requesting that my name be removed from church rolls. I listed the major reasons. One of them was the problems with the historicity of the Book of Mormon. In addition, I confided regularly in my mother during the entire process of my loss of faith. So my family is well aware of my lack of belief, and what caused that loss of belief.

What I choose not to do, in order to preserve my good relationship with them, is to continually bring up the topic or do something that I think may force them to bring up the topic themselves, or experience fresh pain over my loss of faith. Sadly, they adhere to a belief system that has taught them that my loss of faith will result in a forced involuntary familial divorce in the next life, and there's no need to cause them pain over that all over again.

by the way, I'm still waiting for your fantabulous rebuttal to my horse/tapir assertion, that you declared ridiculous hyperbole. Simply telling us that you do have a fantabulous rebuttal doesn't cut it.

[_beastie]

by the way, in case anyone was interested in my promised link to the old Brant discussion, I can't find it on Z, which likely means it occurred on FAIR. Since I'm not a member there, I can't access the search engine, so the chances of my finding it are pretty small.

Oh, but here's the Meridian article in which he insinuated Nephi introduced a new technology to the pre-existing others, who then made him their king.

http://www.meridianmagazine.com/sci_rel/030731fair.html

[_Sethbag]

I think there's a pretty good chance someday you're going to snap out of this inflated perception of your own cleverness and conviction, take a good look around you, and feel pretty damn sheepish. When this happens to you, don't sweat it too hard, bro. Just remember, it happened to the rest of us too.

Thanks for your concern Korihor, but I am quite happy with my beliefs and understanding.

But would you be so happy if you could clearly perceive how misled you've been, and how you have been complicit in maintaining yourself in this state? You play an extremely active role in keeping yourself wrongly convinced of your beliefs. That's one of the defining defensive characteristics of religion - the successful ones have myriad ways in which they defend their beliefs, but none are stronger than the ones they get the believers to practice on themselves.

Seriously, as an exercise, look around the world. Find a handful of hard-core believers in some various, obviously non-true religions. Think long and hard about what these people do to maintain their beliefs. Contemplate the kinds of arguments they use to deflect contrary evidence and criticism, how they come to perceive loyalty to their religion as of paramount importance, how they position and privilege their beliefs in their own minds so that they truly believe that they're right.

Once you think you've seen right through these people, and have a good idea of the kinds of ways in which their religious belief systems have erected fences and walls to defend themselves against unbelief, now ask yourself some very pointed questions.

The first of these is this: "what's so special about me, compared to these people?" How is it that these people have fallen so convinced of the truth of their beliefs, to the point where it's simply not possible to make any headway in dispelling their incorrect notions, and on what basis are you convinced that you can't possibly have fallen for a similar situation?

If you've ever bashed with a committed, and convinced Jehovah's Witness, then consider that person very carefully. Could he or she simply be the mirror image of yourself, only with a different manmade belief system? You know how impossible some of these people can be to get to see anything like the truth about their religion. Wouldn't it be a hoot if you were exactly the same way, only the Mormon version, instead of Jehovah's Witness? That would be a real hoot, wouldn't it?

[_beastie]

beastie wrote:
I still fear that it would upset my family......

I do not want to “force”, so to speak, people to confront this issue if they have no desire to do so, and that particularly includes my LDS family.


By the way, I have to tell you I admire this.

Thanks, Ray.

[_JustMe]

beastie

What I choose not to do, in order to preserve my good relationship with them, is to continually bring up the topic or do something that I think may force them to bring up the topic themselves, or experience fresh pain over my loss of faith. Sadly, they adhere to a belief system that has taught them that my loss of faith will result in a forced involuntary familial divorce in the next life, and there's no need to cause them pain over that all over again.

And actually... this shows you are a good hearted person in many ways. We need more people who have this loving attitude. I am quite serious. What I choose to do in my family when they virtually *force* me to confront their accusations and wild imaginations about my Mormon faith is show how misguided they are because they think the only proper antidote to Mormonism is their anti-Mormon preacher who is half baked and wildly weirded out....LOL! That means we have soe very lively discussions. Now granted, my parents don't like it. But I don't mind, and so they come to me about it all. It's when the discussion starts up around Thanksgiving dinner or Christmas time that they overshoot the mark and overdo the problem. You know..... that IS family time, no matter what blinkin faith or blinkin doubt you have and believe in.

[_JustMe]

beastie

by the way, I'm still waiting for your fantabulous rebuttal to my horse/tapir assertion, that you declared ridiculous hyperbole. Simply telling us that you do have a fantabulous rebuttal doesn't cut it.

It's true nonetheless.........

[_harmony]

beastie

by the way, I'm still waiting for your fantabulous rebuttal to my horse/tapir assertion, that you declared ridiculous hyperbole. Simply telling us that you do have a fantabulous rebuttal doesn't cut it.

It's true nonetheless.........

Right.

Lame.

[_Sethbag]

beastie

by the way, I'm still waiting for your fantabulous rebuttal to my horse/tapir assertion, that you declared ridiculous hyperbole. Simply telling us that you do have a fantabulous rebuttal doesn't cut it.

It's true nonetheless.........

No, it isn't. You're young, and you're enthusiastic, and yes, your relatives' wild preacher is a fanatic, and he's wrong too. But his being wrong doesn't make your religion right. In fact, you're both wrong. You're going to recognize that someday.

Try what I said. Figure out the kinds of things the other 7 billion people in the world do to keep themselves convinced of their beliefs, and then consider carefully why it is that you should be immune to all of those things. If you take this seriously, you might not like what you see.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It seems, Sethbag, that there's a kind of Hegelian inevitability of unbelief. To borrow a term from one of the Marxist variations on Hegelianism -- associated with the late Herbert Marcuse, among others -- those of us who believe suffer from what might be called "false consciousness," but the inexorable dialectic means that we'll be left on the trash heap of history as Progress moves irresistibly on.

I think this is complete nonsense.