God is Ultimately Responsible for Evil

[_scripturesearcher]

How are you defining "evil"?
Who determines what is "evil"?

[_KimberlyAnn]

How are you defining "evil"?
Who determines what is "evil"?

Hi, ScriptureSearcher.

I've been thinking about your question. Personally, I cannot align myself with moral relativists, nor moral absolutists. To my thinking, there are acts that are universally wrong: Rape. Child molestation. The intentional murder of innocent people. Other things are more relative, with rightness or wrongness determined by time and culture.

The way my OP is framed, I think we can look at what God calls "evil." God would be the sole arbiter of what is evil, wouldn't He? By definition, I do not think God can be evil, but He can use his own creation, evil, to do his bidding. Whatever that might be. There is some purpose for "evil" which, in the end, is for the best because God wills it to be so.

According to the Bible, God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed spirit into him, giving him life. God gave man certain tendencies and then called those tendencies "sin," forbidding man to act upon them, but knowing full well he would. God, being sovereign, could have molded men exactly the way He wanted them. Could have made them predisposed to do His will. But, He didn't. He created them as sinners. How can God be sovereign and not be the creator of sin? Yet, the Bible says that God is not the author of sin. How can that be?

Also, on an ancillary note, God condemned all men to death with the fall of Adam. That death was not only physical, but spiritual. It was a universal damnation. Yet, God, foreknowing all, had a Savior for those whom He elected for salvation. Some, according to the Bible, will be saved. Some will not be. All according to the good will and pleasure of God.

We have universal damnation and selective salvation, and it's somehow, in spite of it's capricious nature, the will of God. Unless the Bible is incorrect. And that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

KA

[_The Nehor]

God is a sick f*cker.

Idolatry. You're creating God in your own image. It's supposed to be the other way around.

[_antishock8]

http://www.daylightatheism.org/2007/01/ ... -evil.html

[_Gazelam]

Ancient writers talked alot about the overcoming of Chaos. Chaos is the "natural" order of things. When God creates worlds he goes into chaotic areas of the universe and gathers up this material to form into worlds.

The same thing happens when God creates his children. He organizes the intelligences that are pre-existing. He organizes them in hopes that they will be able to follow his example and be a creative or organizing force (Abr. 3:11-28). This also means that they have the option of being a destructive force. Being a destructive force doesent necessarily mean that they go around with a sledgehammer breaking stuff. There are degrees to these things. (D&C 88:11-44)

God is not the author of evil. He is the great creator or organizer who strives to overcome the chaos that seeks to decompose and or break down all things.

Choas or evil is natural. Creation and order are developed character traits that God seeks to introduce and build up in his creations, but he will not force these things upon us, we have to choose.

[_scripturesearcher]

I've been thinking about your question. Personally, I cannot align myself with moral relativists, nor moral absolutists. To my thinking, there are acts that are universally wrong: Rape. Child molestation. The intentional murder of innocent people. Other things are more relative, with rightness or wrongness determined by time and culture.

The way my OP is framed, I think we can look at what God calls "evil." God would be the sole arbiter of what is evil, wouldn't He? By definition, I do not think God can be evil, but He can use his own creation, evil, to do his bidding. Whatever that might be. There is some purpose for "evil" which, in the end, is for the best because God wills it to be so.

According to the Bible, God created man from the dust of the earth and breathed spirit into him, giving him life. God gave man certain tendencies and then called those tendencies "sin," forbidding man to act upon them, but knowing full well he would. God, being sovereign, could have molded men exactly the way He wanted them. Could have made them predisposed to do His will. But, He didn't. He created them as sinners. How can God be sovereign and not be the creator of sin? Yet, the Bible says that God is not the author of sin. How can that be?

Also, on an ancillary note, God condemned all men to death with the fall of Adam. That death was not only physical, but spiritual. It was a universal damnation. Yet, God, foreknowing all, had a Savior for those whom He elected for salvation. Some, according to the Bible, will be saved. Some will not be. All according to the good will and pleasure of God.

We have universal damnation and selective salvation, and it's somehow, in spite of it's capricious nature, the will of God. Unless the Bible is incorrect. And that's a whole 'nother can of worms.

Hi, KimberlyAnn

I have been thinking about your posts. Here is my best understanding of what the Bible tells us about evil, sin and the purpose that they play in Gods overall plan.

I would like to make a distinction between evil and sin.
Sin is a transgression against God.
Sin is the evil that man commits as the results of a sinful heart.
Evil is the product and consequence of sin.

God warned Adam, “for in the day thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die.” (Genesis 2:17)
Satan is the source of all sin.
God said, that Satan “was a murderer from the beginning…a liar, and the father of it.” (John 8:44)
Satan is the one that tempted Eve and Adam to sin.
It is through Adam that sin “entered into the world, and death by sin;” (Romans 5:12)
All evil is the product and consequences of Adam’s sin.

James 1:13 Let no man say when he is tempted, I am tempted of God: for God cannot be tempted with evil, neither tempteth he any man:
God permits sin but did not cause it. It was caused by the choices made by man to disobey God.

God did not create man as a sinner. Adam and Eve were not sinners until they submitted to the temptation of Satan. We also know that man was not born into sin because Jesus never sinned.

God is not responsible for the acts of evil that man commits. Humanity is sinful.
Romans 3:9 What then? are we better [than they]? No, in no wise: for we have before proved both Jews and Gentiles, that they are all under sin;
Romans 3:10 As it is written, There is none righteous, no, not one:
Romans 3:11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.
Romans 3:12 They are all gone out of the way, they are together become unprofitable; there is none that doeth good, no, not one.
Romans 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Romans 3:24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:
Romans 3:25 Whom God hath set forth [to be] a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;
Romans 3:26 To declare, [I say], at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.

God has given man free will to make choices themselves. God allows humans to commit sins for his own reason to fulfill his purposes.

Humans do not understand God's ways
Isaiah 55:8 For my thoughts [are] not your thoughts, neither [are] your ways my ways, saith the LORD.
Isaiah 55:9 For [as] the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts.
Isaiah 55:10 For as the rain cometh down, and the snow from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater:
Isaiah 55:11 So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper [in the thing] whereto I sent it.
Romans 11:33 O the depth of the riches both of the wisdom and knowledge of God! how unsearchable [are] his judgments, and his ways past finding out!
Romans 11:34 For who hath known the mind of the Lord? or who hath been his counsellor?
Romans 11:35 Or who hath first given to him, and it shall be recompensed unto him again?
Romans 11:36 For of him, and through him, and to him, [are] all things: to whom [be] glory for ever. Amen.

Humans look at things from a earthly perspective and God looks at them from an eternal perspective.
Keep in mind that humans are placed on earth temporarily.
So while God may allow evil to happen on earth, that is still nothing compared to our eternity with him with no evil once we leave earth.

Rom 3:23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;
Since all have sinned, no one deserves anything other than physical and spiritual death.
God shows us his love and mercy by sending Jesus, his one and only son, as a Holy sacrifice to provide us a choice to believe in him or to reject him.
God shows us his justice by only permitting those that accept and believe in Jesus to enter into heaven to live with him for eternity.

God put Adam and Eve on earth knowing that they would sin and bring forth evil into the world.
God could have created us all and let us live in heaven being perfect if that was his will.
God can end all evil, suffering, hunger, disease whenever he wants and he will do that according to his will someday.
The purpose for all of Gods creation is to glorify him.
God is glorified because of sin.
Without sin, how would God be able to share his love, mercy, and grace.

God has absolute rights over human life according to his will.
Human life is a gift from God.
Losing life is never an injustice from God whether it is at birth or age 100.
Whatever God does is just and is used for teaching, guiding, and disciplining his people.

Summary: God has given man free will. As a result man chooses to sin. All evil by your definition would also be considered sins. God does not choose to cause evil to happen, but rather he allows man to make choices from his free will. God does not author evil. Satan does. Satan is still subject to Gods authority. God does have the power to prevent evil or to allow it. When God allows evil to happen, it is for his will. God does not use evil to do his will, but he can use the situation resulting from evil to bring glory to himself.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Hi, ScriptureSearcher.

I'm not qualified to parse scripture, really. I respect your interpretation and thank you for answering my post.

Still, I'm left believing that God is the author of evil. I do not believe He forces men to do evil, and that they have no free will at all, however; I must ask you: Who created Satan? Who created him "a liar from the beginning?" God knew full well what would happen. He created Adam and Eve with a nature such that they would disobey Him when He commanded them not to eat the fruit, and knowing full well in advance that they would.

How much choice did Adam and Eve really have? They were created, with their actions pre-known by God. I submit not only pre-known, but predetermined. Did they surprise God by eating the fruit? No! If Adam and Eve had free will, I don't think they had the option not to eat the fruit. I don't see how they could have. God planned a Savior from before time, because He knew what would happen. Did Adam and Eve have the power to turn that plan upside down by not eating the fruit? I dunno.

Don't feel you need respond to my questions. I'm asking them mostly to myself. :)

Again, thanks for your thoughtful reply.

Kimberly Ann

[_scripturesearcher]

Still, I'm left believing that God is the author of evil. I do not believe He forces men to do evil, and that they have no free will at all, however; I must ask you: Who created Satan? Who created him "a liar from the beginning?" God knew full well what would happen. He created Adam and Eve with a nature such that they would disobey Him when He commanded them not to eat the fruit, and knowing full well in advance that they would.

How much choice did Adam and Eve really have? They were created, with their actions pre-known by God. I submit not only pre-known, but predetermined. Did they surprise God by eating the fruit? No! If Adam and Eve had free will, I don't think they had the option not to eat the fruit. I don't see how they could have. God planned a Savior from before time, because He knew what would happen. Did Adam and Eve have the power to turn that plan upside down by not eating the fruit? I dunno.

Hi, KimberlyAnn

I do think that you are asking some very good questions.

I believe that God created Satan as he was a fallen angel. I also believe that he did know what Adam and Eve would do. Although, it was still ultimately their choice.

Let me try to explain my thoughts of this with an analogy using my 2 year old son.
Lets say I have a table full of food containing carrots, apples, bananas, watermelon, pretzels, crackers, cheese, and one Oreo cookie. I can tell my son that he can eat anything from this table except for the Oreo cookie while I am preparing dinner. My son has free will to choose as he likes. I can assure you that when I return and look at my child's face that it would be covered with Oreo crumbs. Also, keep in mind that he would not need any help from Satan to make his choice. As a parent, I know what my child will do in this situation even if the choice is left up to him. God is our Father and we are his children and he can know how we will choose before we do. The fact that he knows what we will do does not remove our choice and free will. Rather our choice is factored into his plan.