Defenders: Why didn't Joseph show Isaac Hale the plates?

[_Danna]

Have just converted 40 pounds to kilos to understand the discussion. = 18 kilos.

If the plates were claimed to be less than 60 pounds, I don't think this is impossible for a hefty young farm boy.

In a past life I would do the odd battle fitness test (minimum carry 25 kilos over 12 kilomtres in 1hr 50mins- usually 18 kilos in pack, the rest in webbing and rifle). The blokes would usually be hitting the bar before I could peel off my socks at the end. Even though I am the same height as an average bloke, my shoulders were too narrow for the stupid army pack. The key though, was to pack everything as small as possible and as close to central axis as possible (every metre away from the fulcrum doubles the effective weight of the load and all that)

Naughty soldiers would often spend time lugging around full jerry cans (about 20 kilos). again they had to be balanced on shoulders, or even one shoulder.

Can't see someone dashing about for long with a jerrycan under one arm though! but if he could get the load onto the shoulders no problem. A bit of adrenalin would only help the situation.

This in no way says anything about the existance of the plates, but I don't think they can be falsified on the basis of carry weight.

Now, the effects of 40-60 pounds of solid weight on the plates at the bottom of the stack is another matter. Surely the bottom half would just be pancaked and probably fused together. I notice that reproductions of the plates tend to be displayed open half way though, or if 'live' weight, suspended from the binding rings.

Any evidence of Joseph Smith having mangled fingernails from getting his fingers trapped in the book?

[Guest]

Ok, let's take the story at face value.

- It said, quite clearly that Joseph Smith wrapped the plates in a linen frock (which is simply his jacket), and tucked them under his arm.

- They weren't placed in a backpack, centrally positioned on his back, secured tightly in place. Regardles, having a large metallic object sliding around in your backpack would be extremely painful to carry. There's no running or fighting with something like that happening.

- He didn't carry them a la the "farmer's carry". The farmer's carry would be about the only way to transport anything that weighs 40+ lbs over the distance he supposedly traversed. It's too heavy for one's bicep to maintain in a tucked position. You have to let the weight drop, and use your shoulder, forearm, and back to bear the load.

- The "plates" would be an assymetrical load. It would be extremely difficult to manage the weight over diverse terrain, simultaneously receiving blows from blunt objects, and sprinting. By extremely difficult I mean impossible.

This story, due to the impossibility of what occurred, is probably one of the better 'proofs' against the existence of the golden plates.

[_beastie]

It’s interesting that the one person, other than Joseph, who would have been around the plates the most provided a description that contradicts the description of the other witnesses. Emma Smith said that when she moved the plates to dust, the pages rustled like pages of a book.

Emma Smith Bidamon Interview with Joseph Smith III, February 1879 p 539
The plates often lay on the table without any attempt at con=cealment, wrapped in a small linen <table> cloth, which I had given him to fold them in. I have felt of the plates, as they lay on the table, tracing their outline [p. 8] and shape. They seemed to be pliable like st thick paper, and would rustle <with a mettalic sound> when the edges were moved by the thumb, as one does sometimes thumb the edges of a book.

Joseph Smith III to Mrs. E. Horton, 7 March 1900
“My mother [Emma Smith] told me that she saw the plates in the sack, for they lay on a small table in their living room in their cabin on her father’s farm, and she would lift and move them when she swept and dusted the room and furniture. She even thumbed the leaves as one does the leaves of a book, and they rustled with a metalic sound.

Other witnesses said the pages were about the thickness of a pane of glass or tin. In fact, for the pages to have writing on both sides they would have to be fairly thick. So Emma’s description is suspect.

In addition, the plates present the familiar problem that Mesoamerica, during the specified time period, did not possess the metallurgic technology that would be required to manufacture such plates. Yes, apologists offer tumbaga as an alternative to pure gold, which is an alloy of copper and gold. However, tumbaga was not manufactured in ancient Mesoamerica until around 900 AD.

by the way, I provide numerous contemporary descriptions of the plates (and other metal artifacts) on my website here

Danna brings up an intriguing point that never occurred to me before. Wouldn’t the bottom portion of the golden plates be completely fused together due to centuries of being compressed by the weight of the upper plates?

[Guest]

Ok, apologists. Were the plates small little leafy things that could be easily moved by Emma, and tucked under the arm by Mr. Smith while traversing uneven ground and being assaulted?

Or.

Were the plates an assymetrical obect that weighed anywhere from 40-200 lbs due to the necessary space to translate such a saga as contained in the Book of Mormon?

[_Jersey Girl]

I want to try answering this from the perspective of an apologist.

Danna brings up an intriguing point that never occurred to me before. Wouldn’t the bottom portion of the golden plates be completely fused together due to centuries of being compressed by the weight of the upper plates?

You are implying that science is stronger than the will of God, beastie. God can do anything including defying the laws of science in favor of preserving whatever he wishes to be passed on to mankind.

Having said that, in my view, Joseph didn't show the plates to Isaac Hale because the plates didn't exist. Whatever may have been forwarded as the "gold plates" were likely metaphorical references to the work of Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding who authored (albeit posthumously and without consent in the case of Spalding) the Book of Mormon.

My 2 cents.

[_Daniel Peterson]

.Having said that, in my view, Joseph didn't show the plates to Isaac Hale because the plates didn't exist. Whatever may have been forwarded as the "gold plates" were likely metaphorical references to the work of Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding who authored (albeit posthumously and without consent in the case of Spalding) the Book of Mormon.

And, with that, the Witness testimonies -- those of the official Witnesses and of several others -- are simply swept aside.

(See Richard Lloyd Anderson, Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses, for a serious analysis of the official Witnesses and their claims.)

And the Spalding theory, which, for very good reason, no serious historian of Mormonism -- LDS or non-LDS (not even Fawn Brodie or Dan Vogel) -- has accepted for roughly a century, is reasserted.

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=584

See also Lester E. Bush Jr., "The Spalding Theory Then and Now," Dialogue 10/4 (1977): 40—69

[_moksha]

In addition, the plates present the familiar problem that Mesoamerica, during the specified time period, did not possess the metallurgic technology that would be required to manufacture such plates.

If they had the Bessemer Converters necessary to produce the steel for their swords and chariots, they surely could work with malleable gold.

[_beastie]

You are implying that science is stronger than the will of God, beastie. God can do anything including defying the laws of science in favor of preserving whatever he wishes to be passed on to mankind.

In my experience, apologists are usually loathe to just pull out the "God did it" card. They will do their best to explain the phenomenon without relying on a supernatural deus ex machina. I'm interested in how they would deal with the dilemma danna describes; I don't recall seeing it brought up before.

Having said that, in my view, Joseph didn't show the plates to Isaac Hale because the plates didn't exist. Whatever may have been forwarded as the "gold plates" were likely metaphorical references to the work of Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding who authored (albeit posthumously and without consent in the case of Spalding) the Book of Mormon.

My 2 cents.

Heh. It was all "figurative as far as the gold plates are concerned". ;)

[_beastie]

If they had the Bessemer Converters necessary to produce the steel for their swords and chariots, they surely could work with malleable gold.

lol

It is odd that Nephi didn't share such useful technology with the natives. Of course, some apologists, particularly when addressing audiences who likely do not understand the metallurgical time line in Mesoamerica, claim that he did, but that only works with those select audiences.

[Guest]

.Having said that, in my view, Joseph didn't show the plates to Isaac Hale because the plates didn't exist. Whatever may have been forwarded as the "gold plates" were likely metaphorical references to the work of Sidney Rigdon and Solomon Spalding who authored (albeit posthumously and without consent in the case of Spalding) the Book of Mormon.

And, with that, the Witness testimonies -- those of the official Witnesses and of several others -- are simply swept aside.

(See Richard Lloyd Anderson, Investigating the Book of Mormon Witnesses, for a serious analysis of the official Witnesses and their claims.)

And the Spalding theory, which, for very good reason, no serious historian of Mormonism -- LDS or non-LDS (not even Fawn Brodie or Dan Vogel) -- has accepted for roughly a century, is reasserted.

http://farms.BYU.edu/publications/revie ... m=2&id=584

See also Lester E. Bush Jr., "The Spalding Theory Then and Now," Dialogue 10/4 (1977): 40—69

Well. Yah. Der. The "witnesses" were lying. And what does that red herring have to do with the topic at hand? Please, Mr. Peterson, explain to me how someone can wrap a metallic object that weighs anywhere from 40-200 lbs in a linen frock under his arm, traverse 'x' amount of woodland terrain, fend off 3 attackers who laid blows to him... And some how be able to hold onto them? Come on, now. Really? You're a serious scholar, no? You're an esteemed professor of Middle Eastern Studies, and you can't explain to me how someone can tuck a 40-200 lbs object under his arm and hustle through the woods fending off attackers? Please. The floor is yours...