The Mormon Gulag

[_Jersey Girl]

I can't help but remark that everything in the family was plainly wonderful -- until I ruined it all by sending a link to a friend.

A friend or customer?

I'm not sure "friend" is the most accurate description of your relationship with my step-dad.

Of course the description, "sending a link to a friend" is poppycock as well.

Forgive my candor (or not, I don't really care at this point) but the two of you need to get off it. Daniel, you might benefit from trying to increase your understanding of how this all came about from GoodK's perspective.

In other words, maybe hush up and "listen with your eyes" for a while.

[_GoodK]

I most likely know the nature of my relationship with your stepfather better than you do.

When is the last time you two chilled without Ed Snow in the room?

Right.

What do you think I sent to him?

A call to arms. A battle cry. Marching orders.

A sports car? A book? A candygram? A money order?

No... you've got it backwards. He sends you the money orders.

Whatever. I'm in an exceptionally good mood today, and you probably can't do much to ruin that.

Perhaps this is a sign of dying brain cells -- but I fail to see the connection between DCP coming onto a thread I take very seriously and trying to poison it via a still small voice of doubt and trying to ruin his "good mood."

???


Now, take your good mood elsewhere. I don't care to make this thread about you, despite what you may think.




.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Forgive my candor (or not, I don't really care at this point) but the two of you need to get off it.

I'm happy to.

But I've been depicted, repeatedly and for a long time now, as seriously defective in character, heartless, uncaring, and unethical for sending a link to a public message board to GoodK's stepfather and, thereby, grievously wounding their relationship. I simply think it ought to be noted, in passing, that there seem to have been very serious problems in the family prior to my sending that link to GoodK's stepfather.

I've now done so, and am happy to let the discussion revert back to the evils of Mormonism and of FARMS.

Daniel, you might benefit from trying to increase your understanding of how this all came about from GoodK's perspective.

In other words, maybe hush up and "listen with your eyes" for a while.

I have no doubt that, if GoodK is successful in his efforts, we're going to be hearing a very great deal of his perspective over the next few weeks.

That's fine. Everybody gets to have a voice.

I know a tiny bit about this case -- knew of it, even, roughly as it was happening -- but will, no doubt, learn more. And there will probably be responses to GoodK's perspective, as well. (Not, though, from FARMS, which, despite Gadianton's valiant Scartcholeptic efforts, has absolutely nothing to do with the matter. Nothing.)

When is the last time you two chilled without Ed Snow in the room?

Sometime back around March or April, I think. We live in different states, and I don't believe that I've been in California at all this year.

But we've spoken on the phone and e-mailed each other many times since then -- on subjects quite unrelated to you.

Now, take your good mood elsewhere. I don't care to make this thread about you, despite what you may think.

You want to make it about Mormonism, and Gad wants to make it about FARMS.

You don't have any kind of right to do so without being challenged.

Sorry.

Public discussion are public discussions.

[_beastie]

You want to make it about Mormonism, and Gad wants to make it about FARMS.

I don't think this is about FARMS, other than the fact that apologists are just as stupid and gullible as the other parents who sent their children to this place. However, given the strong connection that the place has to Mormonism, it is about Mormonism. I think it highlights the fact that Mormon theology creates desperation in family members when their loved ones won't tow the Mormon line. I suspect the other cultures that would send their children to such a place on the basis of fairly normal teenage rebellions such as listed here would not be cultures that Mormons would like to be classed with.

[_GoodK]

But I've been depicted, repeatedly and for a long time now, as seriously defective in character, heartless, uncaring, and unethical for sending a link to a public message board to GoodK's stepfather and, thereby, grievously wounding their relationship.

Curiously, you are the one that brought it up. Again. All on your own. One has to wonder why you continue to do so.

I simply think it ought to be noted, in passing, that there seem to have been very serious problems in the family prior to my sending that link to GoodK's stepfather.

Of course you note in passing, so hopefully no one calls you on your lies and ignorance about the situation.
Like I've said many, many times, me and my step-dad had a good relationship prior to DCP's meddling. I found out that it was DCP, not Bob, who ratted out my identity while having a beer with him (his was Odouls) at his company's Christmas party.

Serious, serious problems.

I've now done so, and am happy to let the discussion revert back to the evils of Mormonism and of FARMS.

Oh goodie. You've poisoned the well with your still small voice. None of your customers will care, now, that you have no idea what you are talking about, no personal relationship with my family, no real connection to my step-dad other than the FARMS review, etc...

Good job.

I know a tiny bit about this case -- knew of it, even, roughly as it was happening -- but will, no doubt, learn more.

Interesting. I have a PM from you that seems to demonstrate that you have no clue about where I was, only that I was somewhere. I shared some details with you about it. I thought I should note that, in passing.

But we've spoken on the phone and e-mailed each other many times since then -- on subjects quite unrelated to you.

Awww... well that just hurts my feelings. You mean people aren't constantly discussing me on the internet?

You want to make it about Mormonism, and Gad wants to make it about FARMS.

And YOU want to make it about Daniel C Peterson.


Surprise.

I'd expect a professor at the largest private University in the country to demonstrate better reading comprehension skills. This is an issue that Mormons and non-Mormons can and should agree on. I don't know how I could have been more clear about that.

You should take Jersey Girl's advice and just shut up, though.



Really.

[_Jersey Girl]

Daniel

I have no doubt that, if GoodK is successful in his efforts, we're going to be hearing a very great deal of his perspective over the next few weeks.

That's fine. Everybody gets to have a voice.

You know that I don't support for a single second the great many threads wherein you've been the focus, Daniel.

Please stand down and let the young man have his voice be heard on his own thread.

I appeal to you as a participant who is just so sick and tired of seeing thread after thread derailed.

Edited: I'm going to open my blog here soon. If you think GoodK is posting nonsense, you can come and read some of mine! I'm sure you'll find my nitwittery simply engaging. ;-)

[_The Dude]

Interesting website, little Soltzenitzen.

Wasn't there a camp like this in Hawaii as well? Back in the 80s there was a family in my ward who sent all three of their rowdy boys to a camp in Hawaii where they were forced to pick pineapples. I'm not sure how much it was involved with the church, but my impression was that they were affiliated in a similar way as this Boys Ranch. Anyway, the three boys came back in even worse shape and into drugs as well.

[_truth dancer]

One of the most terrifying aspects of religion is the extent to which people will go for their religious convictions.

From Abraham willing to kill his son, to Moses and Joshua slaughtering babies, to FLDS giving their young girls to be raped by older men, to modern day Christian/LDS parents putting their sons in such a prison to be tortured and beaten, it is frightening.

I can't get over the fact that mothers and fathers are willing to harm their children so they will be blessed, or believing somehow God is pleased with their decision to engage in cruelty toward their children.

I don't understand it. I never will.

My heart goes out to you GoodK.

I'm so sorry that your mother and step-father participated in such cruelty. I imagine knowing your parents sought this for you may be even worse than the physical torture. I don't know. It is all horrific.

One question for you, Lowell Bennion seemed to me to be a fabulous man with a very kind heart, (based on having read several of his books). I heard from someone whose father was good friends with Bennion that Lowell wasn't really a believer, (maybe a believer in the same way Moksha is a believer).

Do you think LB was the instigator of cruelty and torture that obviously was part of the program?

One more question... have any leaders been held responsible and punished for the abuse?

~td~

[_cacheman]

Wasn't there a camp like this in Hawaii as well? Back in the 80s there was a family in my ward who sent all three of their rowdy boys to a camp in Hawaii where they were forced to pick pineapples. I'm not sure how much it was involved with the church, but my impression was that they were affiliated in a similar way as this Boys Ranch. Anyway, the three boys came back in even worse shape and into drugs as well.

The Hawaii program was called youth development enterprises (YDE). It sounds like the program that GoodK is describing was much more intense. I don't know anyone in the YDE program who did more than 6 months. The YDE people were all LDS as far as I know, and each work group (14 kids) had an LDS counselor.

The Boys Ranch sounds like it has similarities to YDE, but on a 'whole nuther level'. Is it still in operation?

cacheman

[_Daniel Peterson]

I know essentially nothing about this place other than what GoodK says here.

Perhaps GoodK is telling the truth. Perhaps his perspective is completely accurate. Perhaps it's a horrible place. (Though calling it a "Gulag" may, if Alexandr Solzhenitsyn is to be believed, be a bit extravagant.) Perhaps there's absolutely nothing to be said for the program. Perhaps there was no good or sufficient reason to send GoodK there. Perhaps there's no other side to the story. Perhaps what GoodK says should be accepted at face value, wholly and without reservation.

This is all possible.