The Mormon Gulag

[_Droopy]

I neglected your PM because I didn't know it existed.

[_Dr. Shades]

Still waiting for a moderator to move Loran/Droopy/Coggins/Shirley Phelp's message board drunk dialing (and flagrant attempt to derail) to a more appropriate forum so I can respond to him in the manner in which he or she deserves.

I suppose you want his comments moved because they are personal attacks.

If that's the case, then it's long been board policy that personal attacks are permissible (though not ideal or desired) in the Terrestrial Forum as long as they occur within the normal ebb-and-flow of a thread. The only time they need to be moved to the Telestial Form is when the opening post is a personal attack; i.e. the thread's entire reason for existing is a personal attack.

I instituted this policy because some people view any form of disagreement, now matter how sincere or amicable, as a personal attack, so this cuts down on the amount of complaints we moderators have to deal with.

Yeah, there are degrees of blatantness when it comes to personal attacks, and Droopy's comments were probably quite close to the blatant end of the spectrum, but if I fail to be consistent in every case then a whole 'nother can of worms is opened.

If his comments contained blatant temple content, anatomical references, or sexual dialogue, then yes, I'd move it. So you, too, are free to "respond to him in the manner in which he or she deserves" right here in this thread.

The entire thread is, in and of itself, a derailment, . . .

I have two questions: A) How is it a derailment? B) It's a derailment of what?

[_GoodK]

I suppose you want his comments moved because they are personal attacks.

I wanted them moved so I could respond and not distract from the OP. Without a doubt Droopy's comments are distracting - as well as mind-numbing, antagonistic, and off-topic, - and I didn't want to further pollute this thread by responding to them. I'm not trying to avoid BC's or Droopy's comments. In fact, I sent him a PM and hoped a mod would move his comments to a lower forum so I could respond.

[_Yoda]

I suppose you want his comments moved because they are personal attacks.

I wanted them moved so I could respond and not distract from the OP. Without a doubt Droopy's comments are distracting - as well as mind-numbing, antagonistic, and off-topic, - and I didn't want to further pollute this thread by responding to them. I'm not trying to avoid BC's or Droopy's comments. In fact, I sent him a PM and hoped a mod would move his comments to a lower forum so I could respond.

As I mentioned in my PM to you, we could move this thread to the Celestial Forum. The moderation rules are tighter in that forum. If we move it to Celestial, then I can legitimately split out Droopy's and BC's comments because they are a blatant derailment from the thread, which, in the Celestial Forum, is not allowed.

If you decide to go that route, I will leave a shadow link in Terrestrial so that everyone will know where the thread has been moved. And, I can also pin the thread to the top of the forum, as it has been done here.

As I explained to you, this is your call.

[_Droopy]

I have never gotten my ass beat as bad as I did while I was there. I've taken a beating or two in my day, but I was punched in the face, tackled, kicked, slammed on the ground and into walls, and more. That being said, I didn't get it nearly as bad as some other kids there. I was well liked there, and still got the s*** kicked out of me on a regular basis.

Here's the problem:

1. The entire thing, if true, is so completely out of harmony with Church teachings, culture, and norms, that the sheer extremity of such behavior causes me red flag upon red flag. The idea of the Church knowingly supporting such a system is preposterous on its face, and so one would immediately turn to the next option, which would be some fantastic bastardization of a juvenile boot camp that has gotten out of control, unbeknownst to the Church.

But Goodk and the small number of horror story tellers at the website have put something else on the table by claiming that a large number of other kids have gone through the same treatment. Then they have added a continuing stream of missionary teams over many years duration.

Now, much of the behavior here is flatly illegal, a gross violation of the civil rights of the boys there, and a fair amount of it is felonious, particularly the continuing assault and battery.

Now, I am to believe that, for years on end, this kind of treatment of young kids went on, on a continual basis, with the full knowledge of various missionaries from different parts of the country, with the knowledge of LDS Bishops, and, strangest of all, with the knowledge of the victims themselves, hundreds upon hundreds (several thousand, perhaps?) over the life of the system, and not one of them, their parents, or guardians, ever brought civil or criminal charges against the perpetrators. Only now is this coming to light?

The website does say that they don't believe the Church as an institution is aware or would have anything to do with this place, and so seems fair enough on the surface. On the other hand, it is still called the "Mormon Gulag", apparently because it is claimed to be staffed thoroughly by LDS.

I'd need to see a great deal more documentary evidence, however, before swallowing the testimony of juveniles who were there, admittedly, for some fairly serious problems with authority and conduct. This is just what I would expect from young males who were finally made to ante up for their anti-social behavior.

On the other hand, could it all be true? If the entire place is really staffed 100% by LDS, this again raises red flags. Is it possible? Yes. Mormons are fallen human beings. Is it plausible? I don't know. The behavior claimed is so outrageous that the vast majority of LDS, of all peoples, would seem to be the last group that would be associated with this.

I still find it interesting that this place has been around since the sixties, and only now attention is being drawn to it?

[_GoodK]

Here's the problem:

1. The entire thing, if true, is so completely out of harmony with Church teachings, culture, and norms,

I completely agree. My website reflects that. Specifically the 11th article of faith.

The idea of the Church knowingly supporting such a system is preposterous on its face,

Actually, the idea is that the Church unknowingly supports it.

and so one would immediately turn to the next option, which would be some fantastic bastardization of a juvenile boot camp that has gotten out of control, unbeknownst to the Church.

I was following you until now. That is not the next option at all. Rather, the next option, in my opinion, is that a wealthy and influential Mormon - Senator Doyle "Chris" Buttars - bastardized what could have been a good place with his evilness in a variety of ways that remained relatively unnoticed.

But Goodk and the small number of horror story tellers at the website have put something else on the table by claiming that a large number of other kids have gone through the same treatment.

I like how you call us story tellers. I'll keep that in mind. I'll tell you what. I challenge you to find a resident of the boys ranch who is willing to dispute anything that I have said about it. I can help you out if you need contacts.

Truth is, a large number of kids have put this on the table. The website is only a precussor to the movie and book, both of which are expected to floor people.

Then they have added a continuing stream of missionary teams over many years duration.

This isn't even debatable. It is absolutely verifiable. Two sets of full-time LDS missionaries are at the Utah Boys Ranch right this moment.

Now, I am to believe that, for years on end, this kind of treatment of young kids went on, on a continual basis, with the full knowledge of various missionaries from different parts of the country, with the knowledge of LDS Bishops

I don't really care what you believe, rather, I am correcting a false statement. No one said LDS Bishops and the missionaries knew about all the abuse going on there. Why would I ask the visitors of my website to show their Bishops and Stake Presidents my website?! I think you know that I specifically said otherwise.

Just pointing out that this idea is your invention, not mine.

and, strangest of all, with the knowledge of the victims themselves, hundreds upon hundreds (several thousand, perhaps?) over the life of the system, and not one of them, their parents, or guardians, ever brought civil or criminal charges against the perpetrators. Only now is this coming to light?

It would seem pretty strange, if that were true. There have been plenty of people who have brought civil charges against them. I know of one kid personally. Similar to the LDS church, they tend to settle these lawsuits.

The website does say that they don't believe the Church as an institution is aware or would have anything to do with this place, and so seems fair enough on the surface.

Correct, among other clear disclaimers of that nature.

On the other hand, it is still called the "Mormon Gulag", apparently because it is claimed to be staffed thoroughly by LDS.

It is called a Mormon Gulag because of the nature of the facility, as well as the type of religious indoctrination that goes on there.

This is just what I would expect from young males who were finally made to ante up for their anti-social behavior.

Yes, 5 years later, an adult in his mid-twenties makes it his mission to dump thousands of his own dollars into a project based entirely in fiction. Along the way, he has gathered dozens of other boys to confirm his false accusations and support his cause. It is a huge conspiracy. I am the Anti-Mormon Machine, Droopy. Be afraid.

On the other hand, could it all be true?

Yes. Everything I say in my book is 100% true. I can promise you that. Everything on my website, as far as I know, is 100% true. I don't know everyone that went there personally, but nothing I have heard so far seems unbelievable given what I witnessed.

The behavior claimed is so outrageous that the vast majority of LDS, of all peoples, would seem to be the last group that would be associated with this.

THIS IS EXACTLY WHAT I HAVE BEEN SAYING THE WHOLE TIME, DROOPY. Are you kidding me?

I still find it interesting that this place has been around since the sixties, and only now attention is being drawn to it?

It would be interesting, if that were true. Of course it isn't.

[_harmony]

I have 2 adult children, 25 and 27 years old. Neither one have ever gone through a rebellious stage at all, not in the slightest ever, towards anyone, me, teachers, any authority etc. One of the reasons is I never tried to control my kids, instead I tried to teach them to think for themselves, and question.

Since the rest of this post is directed at Jason, I won't address it, but this is just horse pucky.

Any parent who states that their child/children has never gone through a rebellious stage is either fooling themselves or has their head stuck... umm... in the sand. The nature of children, as they progress through the stages of childhood, is to rebel over and over again. The child who wants to feed himself is rebelling. The child who wants to dress himself is rebelling. The child who didn't signal a turn, went over the speed limit, refused to ... well, you get the idea. Rebellion is part of growing up. Otherwise, children stay tied to their parents' apron strings and never develop into functional adults. So you may not have noticed it, or it was pretty mild, but your children went through rebellion, marg. Everyone does. Unless, of course, they still live at home and nurse at your breast. (not a picture I'm prepared to entertain.)

[_marg]

Everyone does. Unless, of course, they still live at home and nurse at your breast. (not a picture I'm prepared to entertain.)

The reason they haven't rebelled is they have/had nothing to rebel against, in fact my daughter complained to me about that one time. If I went into further explanation it would be a tangent to this thread. I'll keep it very short. I'm at the opposite extreme to parents who want to control their kids or go beserk over them smoking some grass, drinking at parties at a young age, staying out late etc. I did those things, and my husband has been smoking grass and drinks alcohol regularly since I started dating him a bazallion years ago. My 25 year old son still lives at home. He wants to move out and get married, but needs to finish a course he just started at the community college to be a 911 operator. His girlfriend now fiance has been sleeping over every week for a minimum of at least 2 days generally more for the last year and a half. He's been working at a beer store for minimum wage over the last 3 years since we moved back to Canada from California. I don't charge room and board, I provide a car with insurance paid for and I pay for their education. This year I'm paying for my son's course, and my daughter's who is currently in Wales working and taking a master's program. Truly there is nothing to rebel against.

[_Jersey Girl]

I did those things, and my husband has been smoking grass and drinks alcohol regularly since I started dating him a bazallion years ago.

They call it weed now.
;-)

[_Jersey Girl]

marg

I'm at the opposite extreme to parents who want to control their kids or go beserk over them smoking some grass, drinking at parties at a young age, staying out late etc. I did those things, and my husband has been smoking grass and drinks alcohol regularly since I started dating him a bazallion years ago. My 25 year old son still lives at home. He wants to move out and get married, but needs to finish a course he just started at the community college to be a 911 operator. His girlfriend now fiance has been sleeping over every week for a minimum of at least 2 days generally more for the last year and a half. He's been working at a beer store for minimum wage over the last 3 years since we moved back to Canada from California. I don't charge room and board, I provide a car with insurance paid for and I pay for their education. This year I'm paying for my son's course, and my daughter's who is currently in Wales working and taking a master's program. Truly there is nothing to rebel against.

marg,

Your post was of great interest to me and I don't see it as derailing since it addresses parenting. What was of interest to me is that much of what you wrote is true for us (Jersey Girl and JB) and our children have never rebelled in the sense that you mean to address rebellion.

Except for us smoking grass as adults.

Or weed.

:-)