The Mormon Gulag

[_marg]

I've always said that what we see on the screen in no way represents the whole of who we are and in this case, we can't expect to have all the facts regarding a persons personal life. I myself, would much prefer that people ask questions instead of jumping to conclusions.

And in addition some people are better than others in articulating. It doesn't take much to create an erroneous picture. Harmony thought I was trying to bait, but I didn't really want to get into the personal stuff as it's a tangent but then I thought I owed it, because of my previous comments. While I'm at it, because I think I made it sound like my entire family are all druggies, we're not. My husband, not my kids is the biggest consumer but he's not out of control in any way. For brevity I'm not going to go into further details.

[_Jason Bourne]

I admit is does sound loosey goosey but it works for me. If you think I've and my husband have partied all our lives you are mistaken. Just because I said he smokes grass since I've known him and we drink doesn't mean we are perpetually drunk or him stoned. I got married at 21, my husband at 23. He paid for his entire university education...part of how he paid for it was by selling grass to fellow students, but he did work weekends in a research lab as well. We've never received anything from either set of parents, no help financially whatsoever. He's worked from a young age virtually non stop. Became a top executive in a multinational company. Retired early. I graduated from university while married to him and when the kids were young.

Ok. So you guys are pretty self made. Terrific. The illegal activity is a but suspect :-), but then I think drugs should be legalized.

by the way did not think you partied your entire life away. I was trying to be a bit funny by being a bit flippant.

You don't know the background, that my husband rarely spent time with the kids as they grew up,due to demanding job and traveling. I'm the boss when it comes to them. My son was born with imperforated anus. In addition when he was about 10 via research at a university library I learned he had developmental coordination disorder affecting fine motor skills which he hasn't grown out of. You don't know what both of those entail, nor the affects on esteem, social life, schooling, job prospects etc. I knew at the time he was 10 he was high risk for depression, anti-social behavior, dropping out of school, withdrawal etc. Nor do you know his fiance was hit by a car before they met, was in a coma for months, developed flesh eating disease on one leg. Is still having operations on her leg, one just done last month and currently can't work or take courses. Everybody is unique.

Well sure and I noted my comments were based on your limited comments and that everyone is different. What works for some does not work for other.

And I am sorry for your son's health challenges as well as that of his fiance. I hope things go well for both of them.

I don't go by rules or social convention.

Yes I think I can see that.

[_Mister Scratch]

Dear GoodK:

Thank you very much for at last posting the details concerning your "sentence" at the Boy's Ranch. I had long wondered what had gone on there, and, indeed, the details are utterly horrifying. You have my deepest sympathies, and of course I wholeheartedly condemn both the Ranch, and whatever sort of culture or mindset would lead to such a place, and/or allow it to exist.

I think you are right to point out the Ranch's connection with Mormonism. After all, Mormonism also has included things like Blood Atonement, MMM, and the Strengthening Church Members Committee. I have no doubt that, if it were feasible, there would be a Men's Ranch and a Women's Ranch, too, and that the SCMC would oversee it. Heck, there is already a Gay Men's Ranch---it is called Evergreen.

I don't mean to sound conspiratorial or anything, but it does seem pretty obvious to me that Mormonism currently has a culture---or subculture---which allows disgusting things like this "Gulag" to exist. The absolutism and insistence upon obedience surely have something to do with it.

Finally, I just have to say that I am almost as disgusted with many of the TBMs on this thread as I am with the Gulag itself. It is certainly quite clear that they are playing "damage control." I see no evidence that any of them:

---Condemn the events which took place at the facility
---Disapprove of the facility
---Disapprove of the obvious LDS connection
---Condemn this specific facility
---Etc., etc., etc.

We don't even get a token, "Wow! I don't know if this is true, but I sure do condemn it if it is." Furthermore, I see little evidence that any of them bothered to read GoodK's link at all. Shame on all of them, in any case.

[_harmony]

I don't go by rules or social convention.

Yes I think I can see that.

And yet I'm getting the idea that marg condemns those who do follow the rules and/or social convention. Perhaps condemns is too strong a word. Perhaps she just sees herself (and her family) as above rules and social conventions.

The thing is, all kids rebel (or at least all of them who ever stamped their foot and demanded to be allowed to dress themselves, feed themselves, brush their own hair do). Mine certainly did, but while I may have sent one of them to live with relatives for a few months (coming home only on weekends), I would never have considered sending them to a facility hundreds of miles away, where they could not get home and I could not get to them. That is not parenting, to me. That is abdicating one's responsibilities to someone else.

[_Jason Bourne]

I think you are right to point out the Ranch's connection with Mormonism.

If the Church has missionaries there and if what is described at the site Goodk links is accurate then the Church should pull its missionaries.

After all, Mormonism also has included things like Blood Atonement, MMM, and the Strengthening Church Members Committee.

Yes Mormons are humans and there have been some ugly blotches in its history.

I have no doubt that, if it were feasible, there would be a Men's Ranch and a Women's Ranch, too, and that the SCMC would oversee it.

And I have no doubt you think the black helicopters are coming to get you.

Heck, there is already a Gay Men's Ranch---it is called Evergreen.

I thought Evergreeen was gone.

I don't mean to sound conspiratorial or anything,

Now THAT is RICH!! You are a funny fellow Srcratch.

but it does seem pretty obvious to me that Mormonism currently has a culture---or subculture---which allows disgusting things like this "Gulag" to exist. The absolutism and insistence upon obedience surely have something to do with it.

Yes I can see how some Mormons could set up something like this. Oh and by the way there are hundreds of such reform type groups that are not Mormon at all. How do you account for those? These places are not unique.

Finally, I just have to say that I am almost as disgusted with many of the TBMs on this thread

Well Scratch I am disgusted that you take another slef indulgent opportunity to beat things LDS as a result of Goodks misfortune.

Shame on all of them, in any case.

Such a rebuke from you mean little. I think you know little about shame.

[_marg]

And yet I'm getting the idea that marg condemns those who do follow the rules and/or social convention. Perhaps condemns is too strong a word. Perhaps she just sees herself (and her family) as above rules and social conventions.

What I was trying to get at but I didn't want to be specific because this thread is not about Eric per se, it's about the Utah Ranch, but the only person I have good information about who went there is Eric and essentially what I was thinking is how wrong it was for his step dad to be over controlling, freaking out over some grass and sending him away for petty infractions. I was thinking that Eric was justified to rebel, nothing wrong with it. I don't see a problem with teens rebelling. It so happens mine didn't because I didn't give them anything to rebel against, that's the way I was raised, that's the way I raised them. Eric's step dad is the other extreme, he's an example of an over controlling parent who most definitely was wrong in how he dealt with Eric, in how he handled the rebellion. Now Eric's an adult, it's s a different ball-game. But I think Eric is the mature adult in the relationship between dad and him, not the dad.

I believe what Eric says, though I don't have the whole picture. But I do have that letter from the dad which was posted on this board and a sense of what he's like. If I had a son like Eric, I'm virtually positive not only would he be thriving, he'd have completed university and be doing extremely well. Eric is obviously an extremely intelligent mature capable individual and should never have ended up in some rehab place. Eric's step dad doesn't know what problems one can have with their child. My son isn't doing well relative to others, but there are issues involved which make a difference. He is however, doing well relationship wise with me, his dad, sister and others.

The thing is, all kids rebel (or at least all of them who ever stamped their foot and demanded to be allowed to dress themselves, feed themselves, brush their own hair do). Mine certainly did, but while I may have sent one of them to live with relatives for a few months (coming home only on weekends), I would never have considered sending them to a facility hundreds of miles away, where they could not get home and I could not get to them. That is not parenting, to me. That is abdicating one's responsibilities to someone else.

This is the same problem I have. Only under extreme conditions, such as a teen who is is dangerous to society, to others, to themselves should they be incarcerated. That place is a jail not a rehab center.

[_Jason Bourne]

I believe what Eric says, though I don't have the whole picture. But I do have that letter from the dad which was posted on this board and a sense of what he's like.

While the letter was pretty over the top especially to someone who is not religous like yourself I think it is wrong for you to come to a conclusion about the entire man based on that microscopic example.

If I had a son like Eric, I'm virtually positive not only would he be thriving, he'd have completed university and be doing extremely well.

Oh you hardly know that and cannot even say. Were you present at all when Eric was a teen? Did you see his parents side? Eric nothing personal. I am sure you are a fine fellow. But marg cannot know this not at all. He may have been more rotten then he is letting on. Maybe not. His personality may or may not mix with yours. You just cannot know this at all.

Eric is obviously an extremely intelligent mature capable individual and should never have ended up in some rehab place.

Yes his posts here reflect a fairly bright fellow. I agree that he should not have been sent to such a place assuming we can trust all he has said.

Eric's step dad doesn't know what problems one can have with their child. My son isn't doing well relative to others, but there are issues involved which make a difference. He is however, doing well relationship wise with me, his dad, sister and others.

Hmmm. Do you know all the other challenges that Eric's step dad may have with other kids, his own life, his up bringing? What do you really know abouyt what Eric's step dad does and does not know?

[_Jersey Girl]

Jason

While the letter was pretty over the top especially to someone who is not religous like yourself I think it is wrong for you to come to a conclusion about the entire man based on that microscopic example.

Jason?

....that's what you did with marg's post further up the thread.

:-)

[_marg]

Quite frankly Jason you are blind or biased. Eric and his dad aren't the main issue, they are only one example which may or may not be typical of others who were sent to the Utah Boys Ranch, so I don't want to keep focussing on them. But to address your post, keep in mind Eric's step dad sent him over 2 states away, when he just turned 16, with no contact of former friends and social network. Im not sure how much contact Eric had with family but apparently in the first year not much. That's drastic measures. So what did Eric do that was so terribly wrong. He must have been an absolutely terrible out of control teen.

Let's read what Eric's step dad says:

"He is quite young and inexperienced and I think if and when he matures a bit in the next ten to twenty years or so, he will see things quite differently that he does at this time. He's not fundamentally a bad person and he's as lot more cocky in print that he is in a face to face encounter. This forum is one way for him to vent and work out some of the bigger questions he's wrestling with. I have high hopes for him long-term."

So what do we know Jason..even his dad acknowledges he's not a bad person, he's not even cocky. According to the dad he's simply immature with some big questions he's wrestling with. When he says "big questions" he's probably talking mainly about Mormonism . He's not describing a terribly delinquent or a severely emotionally troubled young individual. In fact he's got high hopes for him, so he knows full well his son has potential to be quite successful..as long as he "repents and returns" his step dad's words.


He writes:

I won't confess his sins but at the risk of stating the obvious, let's just say that if he loved God more than the things of the world he would be a very strong Latter-day Saint.

We can see here that Mormonism is a big issue for the step-dad. It almost seems to be his entire concern.

He writes:

As it is, the "world" has his attention at this time. I hope he will in time realize the path he is on has only brought him much pain, much sorrow, and much deprivation.

So the dad knows he's been deprived. And what would be the cause of that deprivation? They were not a poor family, it cost close to $106,000 to sent Eric to the place. DCP & Ed Snow solicited him for money. by the way, that fact indicates his extreme loyality to the church. And his issue with his now 23 year old son is that the world has his attention? Shouldn't someone at 23 be allowed to make their own choices, regarding sex, alcohol and religion?

He writes:

God is at the helm and God will not be mocked. Eventually every knee shall bow before Christ and every tongue will confess his Messiahship. And that includes my son and every self-professed atheist on this list.

So the man knows he's writing to atheists, he doesn't have the maturity to keep these fanatical religious thoughts to himself.

He writes:

When he finally gets tired of sin, I thnk he will make the right decisions, repent and return. And we will welcome him with open arms.

What sin? Having sex? Eric is 23 does he have to be married to have sex.? Alcohol is not against the law, can he not drink occasionally? Grass shouldn't be against the law, but there is lots of ignorance about it, frankly it's not worse than alcohol for occasional recreational use. And one should be able to choose their own religious beliefs or lack of them, but I don't get the impression Eric's dad can accept "atheism" in his family. I get the impression if Eric would be religious like him... then he will accept him.

Ok Jason, as I said I prefer not to focus on his step dad and him.

[_Jason Bourne]

Jason

While the letter was pretty over the top especially to someone who is not religous like yourself I think it is wrong for you to come to a conclusion about the entire man based on that microscopic example.

Jason?

....that's what you did with marg's post further up the thread.

:-)

Uhhh I think if you will read my post I said BASED ON WHAT YOU POSTED HERE....