Question

[_Mad Viking]

I would just like to say that the Vikings got their asses handed to them in the year 1066 by the English.

And?

[_marg]

What is a matter of having a positive attitude?

All I meant was if one focuses on the negative, spends lots of time thinking about the negatives, if one assumes the worst, if one worries often about things that might happen beyond one's control..that sort of thing...one is much more likely to have difficulties coping than if one takes the opposite approach or a positive attitude.

[_Sam Harris]

Hi All,

I want to thank everyone who posted to this thread with their thoughts or support, you've given me a lot to think about and reply to. Unfortunately I can't do it today due to time constraints. But hopefully I'll be able to get back to it later in the week, as I really appreciate the input. Hope your Monday is going well.

-Samantha

[_moksha]

Even when I was a non-believer, I truly appreciated the role religious people played in burying the dead. Now, that I have come to terms with my disbelief, I appreciate it even more. Religion provides comfort, solace and meaning for the mourners.

[_Roger Morrison]

Even when I was a non-believer, I truly appreciated the role religious people played in burying the dead. Now, that I have come to terms with my disbelief, I appreciate it even more. Religion provides comfort, solace and meaning for the mourners.

Yes it does. Comfort, solace and meaning are very purposeful whatever there source.

Interesting side-bar: Just listening to CBC phone-in "program", emphasised, as being typically Canadian--it isn't a "show" ;-). Subject: Bible in the class-room. Line was buuusy, so i left a message:

Bible not to be presented in a converting or indoctrinating style. Could be taught as mythology, or a theory/belief of a particular religious segment of society; as well as Hindu ec. could be taught...

[_Sam Harris]

Hello All,

I'm sorry that it's taken me so long to reply, life has been extrememly hectic (dramatic to say the least) over here these past few weeks. And please forgive me for the LOOOONG post. I'm in the home stretch of delivering this baby, on OB # 4, and it looks like finally things will even out so I can just give birth and go on with my life. I hate America's healthcare system. But anyways....

I'm kind of disappointed that some of the more ardent supporters of disbelief in God didn't come forward and give good examples of what they do in times of emotional crisis, when the average believer turns to God. I mean, if belief in God is not logical, then I'd like to see examples of what to do when life hits at you hard and you do not have that spiritual background to lean on.

I know as well as anyone else that people have done a great deal of harm in the name of religion for as long as religion as been present in human society. But the key here is PEOPLE committed these acts, not religion. It may not be readily admitted, but you can take a belief in God out of the picture and still have war, famine, etc. The little girl I used to watch would say "duh".

To me, religion was simply constructed as a way to answer the things that cannot be answered by looking at merely what you see in front of you. It was constructed as a way to cope with life, and forgive us believers for not always being all that good at it. I believe the original purpose was a good one, and throughout my illness and pregnancy I have come across a lot of good people who believe in a God, who have been very kind and helpful to me. It is their belief that spurred them to assist myself and my family, so I refuse to just throw the baby out with the bathwater.

Does that mean I have this strong sense of faith, and that everything is perfect in my world? Hell no. Half the time I'm wondering if I'm meant to have my child, it seems that every other day there is an obstacle thrown in our way. I don't believe in abortion for myself, so I just keep going. Not to mention, this isn't just my child. But I do believe in patterns, and have looked back on many parts of my life to see why things played out exactly the way they did. It's getting kind of rediculous (the whole "there's a reason" idea) right now, but I'm going to keep going. No choice.

Thank you to those of you who did reply to my initial question (actually replying with personal thoughts and opinions on the QUESTION, not religious people), I appreciate all of your input. I know that the question was aimed at the strident nonbelievers, but anyone who gave input was definitely appreciated.

Mad Viking: I can relate to a great deal of what you posted, especially your third paragraph. I'm done asking why for the moment (too tiring), but it does annoy me greatly when people give me the "God won't test you more than you can endure" line. I hate that. Sometimes I want to ask those individuals just how many funerals they've attended, how many illnesses they've had to live long term with, how much abuse they've endured. I guess it boils down to this; when you're going through something, and someone comes up to you and gives you this glib piece of advice, it would be nice to see that this individual has been through close to what you have and come out the way you wanted to, before they give out their "words of wisdom".

My grandmothers used to tell me to "just have faith" when I was a kid. I didn't understand how sitting on my ass and believing that things would work out would benefit me. I now see faith as a dynamic process, and can understand completely why people question God. I do it all the time, kick, scream, cry, whatever. I don't feel guilty about it, either.

Analytics: I like the way you described your view of mortality, it's kind of comforting. I like to travel, and lately I've been coming to grips with the fact that the Travel Channel may be as close as I get to seeing some of the places I've once seen as well as some of the places I would like to. It is what it is. And I think your view is a very healthy way to view mortality.

Yes, life is rare. I also think that way about prosperity, we can't always have it in every area of our lives, so when we do have it, we treasure it all the more. I've learned to simply be grateful for the good days, and not get so sad on the bad ones, though I'm not always successful. And you are completely right that far too many use faith as an excuse for doing harm, using their beliefs to cover their fears. It's sad....we would have so little to be afraid of, if every person would just be vulnerable for a few minutes...then we'd see that the person we fear most isn't that different from us.

Mama Liz: I swear, one day I will make it down there to party with you. We're still thinking about moving to that area, DC sucks. Virginia especially. The state of VA can blow me right now...what with their medicaid and public assistance systems....grrr...be glad to go back to work soon. I'm with you, I see faith as an aiding system for many, and gladly admit that I use it this way.

WhoKnows: Man, if only I lived in Amsterdam....

Harmony: Ever since I read that one line of your post, I've been thinking about you. I don't know if it was you who has had to deal with this, or someone close to you, but I cannot imagine. That you have held onto your faith in the midst of such a thing is evidence to me of your strength. I've spent the past seven months worrying about the health of my son in light of my own, and I can't imagine what I'd do if I lost him, or if my issues affected him. I pray daily that this doesn't happen. I'm glad your faith has helped you in such a time.

JustMe: I hold a similar position to you, I feel that the storms of life are lessons (the packages they come in suck sometimes), and to say that one doesn't want to suffer (to me) is the same as saying that one doesn't want to learn.

Krose: I can understand somewhat your reaction during the struggles you had with your dad and son. I'm not saying it's wrong not to plead with God when you have trials, I'm in no place to say that. I guess I just get my bristles up when someone says that you're not supposed to. I'm sorry about your Dad, I lost mine about six years back. I didn't pray either on the way to the hospital, I just said to myself, "come what may". It's like I knew. And instead of dwelling on my regrets that I wasn't there, I look to the fact that I got from him (finally) the one thing I'd been waiting my whole life for. His last words to me were that he loved me. That's worth more than anything.

You are quite right about the Holocaust survivors. I guess it's just a testament to how many paths the human mind can take, that a group of people can all face the same situation, and yet have different views of it. Which leads me to the "truth is relative" stance that I still hold.

Roger: I always love getting posts from you, you make the left side of my brain work, which doesn't always want to. Point taken on the condition of placing people in the category of "believer versus non-believer". Once again I see the limitations in my worldview based on where I am. I've often said that the only reason I took the Christian path is because of the environment I was born into. I don't really see a problem with facing that limitation, it makes my internal contradictions a bit easier to face.

I'm with you, death doesn't bother me, it's just the dying part. And I'm not really sure that my belief system has served me well in this time of need, which is why I've probably been so quiet when it comes to my spiritual quest. The ideas of God initiating trials in my life just to test my strength doesn't sit well with me anymore. I know that I am very responsible for a great deal of what I'm going through; choices affect everything. With my child and all the issues I've had health-wise, timing was a huge thing. I can't help the disease I was born with, but I could have timed the planning of my family a bit better. The good thing is that in my and my fiancee's lack during this time, we've learned to make do with what we have, lean on each other, accept help, and I firmly believe we will carry these lessons with us when we go back to that time of prosperity that we took advantage of. And nature rocks, I think that simply appreciating nature has been a healing thing for me lately; I have a brood of pet squirrels that are getting fat off the stale bread in my house, and every day that I can get outside to simply enjoy the sun I am grateful.

Jersey Girl: That you evaluate, perceive and process differently does in no way negate or invalidate the evaluations, perceptions and processes of another human being. Thank you for that. I often wonder how often I fall into the trap of negating other's experiences based on my own. I appreciate you putting that forward.

Mok: I think that for some, religion definitely does treat death with a gentleness that might not have been there. Perhaps I've simply been to too many "homegoings", and that is why I am a bit skeptical of funerals. I kind of want to be cremated and have a party. My fiancee's grandma died recently, and they just cremated her and took her ashes back to Connecticut where she was from. That by no means lessened the grief process, but I find it very trying to prepare for a funeral. It's just too much for me.

Everyone who contributed to this discussion, thank you. Sorry for the long post. I've been wanting to get back to you, as I think it's rude to ask a question like this and not reply to such well thought out answers. I don't know when I'll be back, if ever. So much has changed over the past five months, I'll probably just blog about it for those who are interested. But things change daily and dramatically over here, so I think I'll probably be changing certain rituals and habits that I had before, because life simply doesn't afford me much room for it. But it has been fun (most of the time) posting here. All of you, be blessed in what ways you can find those blessings.

-Sam

[_Jersey Girl]

SH

Half the time I'm wondering if I'm meant to have my child, it seems that every other day there is an obstacle thrown in our way.

Be glad for it and do not envy those who appear to have no obstacles. Obstacles are the catalyst for increasing our striving. Without obstacles, we would have no reason nor opportunity to develop internal strength.

What doesn't kill you, only makes you stronger.

Jersey Girl
Olympic High Jumper
:-)

Reach through the screen and take this-