I'm not Agnostic

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Locked
_GoodK

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _GoodK »

Scottie wrote:
If something can't be proven one way or the other, simple logic dictates that the possibility exists that it MIGHT be true.


I couldn't disagree with this more. You realize that by that same logic, Scientology MIGHT be true.

This seems so absurd to me. How could you know anything using this logic? Anything that is possible MIGHT be true? So I guess since there is no way to prove that aliens haven't abducted you and erased your memory, it might be true.
Or whether or not Bob Saget raped and killed a girl in 1990. I don't get it.
_Danna

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _Danna »

As I understand logic (a very dodgy proposition! my knowledge of logic comes from getting trounced in arguments with my philosopher cousin), you can prove a negative by showing the positive claim to be false. I can't think of an argument for God, as I cannot think of anything for which God is a necessary and sufficient cause. But I think I can for the Mormon version of Jesus. Here goes:

Statement 1a.
If Mormon Jesus exists, then he is accurately described and quoted in the Book of Mormon

Statement 2.
If:
Mormon Jesus is merciful and truthful (Alma 5: 48)
Mormon Jesus is omnipotent (Mosiah 3: 5)
Mormon Jesus claimed that the destruction in America was BECAUSE of wickedness and abominations. (3 Nephi 9:12) and
A child is not guilty because of its parents. (Alma 30: 25)
Then
Mormon Jesus would spare the American children
But
Mormon Jesus tortured and killed innocent children by burning, drowning, and burying them alive.(3 Nephi 9: 3-15)
Therefore
Mormon Jesus is not merciful and/or truthful and/or omnipotent.

Statement 1b.
So….
Mormon Jesus is not accurately described in the Book of Mormon
Therefore
Mormon Jesus does not exist
_solomarineris
_Emeritus
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:51 am

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _solomarineris »

LifeOnaPlate wrote:It seems you don't believe in God as conceptualized by most religions, then. But still, do you have any ultimate concern in life? Any feeling for an ultimate meaning? I'm not using these questions as an argument in behalf of the God I believe in, only as questions about your personal take on the purpose of life; it's greatest concerns, etc.


LoAp;
You're an ultimate "bonehead" as most believers are;
"Ultimate meaning?", "Purpose?", "concern?". You do think, you are entitled though these adjectives and agnostics & atheists are clueless?.
Dude, get a life.
For once, get out of your cage and smell the Earth after Rain!
Drink a cup of coffee, shot of Jack Daniels, to prove God or your wife, you are in charge of your life.
You are not a puppet of Rules & Regulations of other Men.
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _antishock8 »

John Larsen wrote:
antishock8 wrote:Thama. Really? Really??

1+1 = 2

Using inductive reasoning I say that when you add an odd whole number with another odd whole number you always come up with an even whole number.

How did I not just prove something?

"1+1=2" is true by definition. That is not really a good example since it is established by neither induction or deduction.


Uh. That's true. But that's not what I proposed. Go back and re-read what I typed. Induction was used to make the claim when you add two odd whole numbers together you always get an even whole number. The point was to show an example where you can use induction to prove an absolute truth.

I then went on to assert, indirectly, that ZERO is proof of nothing. It's proof of absence. And I use inductive reasoning with the concept of zero, or absence, to state there's no god because I can't produce one. There are zero gods, and that in of itself is proof through induction that gods don't exist. 0 + 0 = 0. 0 gods + 0 gods = 0 gods. Thus there are no gods.

I go on to say that if you disagree with my assertion then you are required to produce the god. In other words, I proved a negative assertion through the use of induction.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Thama
_Emeritus
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:46 pm

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _Thama »

Danna wrote:As I understand logic (a very dodgy proposition! my knowledge of logic comes from getting trounced in arguments with my philosopher cousin), you can prove a negative by showing the positive claim to be false. I can't think of an argument for God, as I cannot think of anything for which God is a necessary and sufficient cause. But I think I can for the Mormon version of Jesus. Here goes:

Statement 1a.
If Mormon Jesus exists, then he is accurately described and quoted in the Book of Mormon

Statement 2.
If:
Mormon Jesus is merciful and truthful (Alma 5: 48)
Mormon Jesus is omnipotent (Mosiah 3: 5)
Mormon Jesus claimed that the destruction in America was BECAUSE of wickedness and abominations. (3 Nephi 9:12) and
A child is not guilty because of its parents. (Alma 30: 25)
Then
Mormon Jesus would spare the American children
But
Mormon Jesus tortured and killed innocent children by burning, drowning, and burying them alive.(3 Nephi 9: 3-15)
Therefore
Mormon Jesus is not merciful and/or truthful and/or omnipotent.

Statement 1b.
So….
Mormon Jesus is not accurately described in the Book of Mormon
Therefore
Mormon Jesus does not exist


THERE we go. Refuting the idea of God in general: exercise in futility. Refuting a specific doctrinal concept of God: much easier.

There are a few holes there just wide enough for a believer to sneak through if they were really determined (they might refute statement 1a using Nephi's disclaimer that there are errors in the Book of Mormon, or might refute that line 2 of statement 2 is a valid premise for its 1st conclusion on the basis that omnipotence can be defined as "capable of doing anything that is possible"). But your idea is good.
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Jason Bourne wrote:
It is not nonesense. Don't be so smug. This is why I usually avoid discussing this with non-believers. They are typically so smug.

Oh yes Smug, is a rare quality over on MAD.



Hmmm

Do I post on MAD? Am I supporting MAD posters behaviors? I was referring to much of what I see for proclaimed atheists here and in your post specifically.
_Jason Bourne
_Emeritus
Posts: 9207
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2006 8:00 pm

Re: I'm not Agnostic

Post by _Jason Bourne »

Actually, there's more evidence for Santa Claus. Everyone's seen pictures of him or seen him in the mall, we know there's a North Pole, there are numerous consistent stories about him, and presents appear in stockings and under trees every year.



I disagree. I believe the things I listed, which certainly could be discussed in much more detail, speak strongly to a potential creator behind them than does the cultural Santa Clause.

But as I keep pointing out this thread is about KNOWING there is NOT a God not me proving there is.

The problem isn't the evidence, but the conclusions drawn from that evidence.


Conclusions are constantly being drawn on all sorts if issue from all sorts of evidence.
The universe is infinitely bigger than just this planet,


Of course. I never said that it was not.

and suffers from massive chaos.


In some cases yet it all works and functions in an incredibly orderly way as far as how galaxies and solar systems works and function.
In the vast majority of the universe, life is unsustainable.


So?

That there happens to be this particular planet that sustains it means this planet got lucky (so to speak - might be unlucky from a planet's point of view... if you think about it, we're all planetary parasites), given the billions of other planets that didn't get life


That is one theory. Of course we think but we do not know, that life is highly probable on other worlds in the Universe as well.


I'm not sure how you derive order and function from that model.


If you want to start a thread on that topic we can discuss it. That is not the topic of this thread.



And the fact that humans are self-aware enough to ask about god speaks more about the nature of our mental processes, specifically, our imagination as well as our desire to gain comfort where we can than it gives validity to the notion of a creator.


I disagree. I think it is built into us by God and gives potential validity to a God.
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: I'm not Agnosti

Post by _harmony »

Some Schmo wrote:... and suffers from massive chaos.


Everything is/was chaos, until someone came along who figured it out. So that which is still chaos will eventually be figured out.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_antishock8
_Emeritus
Posts: 2425
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2008 2:02 am

Re: I'm not Agnosti

Post by _antishock8 »

harmony wrote:
Some Schmo wrote:... and suffers from massive chaos.


Everything is/was chaos, until someone came along who figured it out. So that which is still chaos will eventually be figured out.


Prove it.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
_Thama
_Emeritus
Posts: 258
Joined: Sun Jun 01, 2008 8:46 pm

Re: I'm not Agnosti

Post by _Thama »

antishock8 wrote:
harmony wrote:Everything is/was chaos, until someone came along who figured it out. So that which is still chaos will eventually be figured out.


Prove it.


Actually, via your inductive method to making proofs, she just did. :)
"My name is Ozymandias, king of kings: Look on my works, ye Mighty, and despair!" Nothing beside remains.
Locked