PoK:
Thanx for all you do and bless you, we seem to be on the same path and you are helping me a lot along the way.
Glad to hear that I could be of help.
Antishock:
I'll relay an anecdotal experience. I was on the phone with my gf this morning. Her brother-in-law, a devout Mormon, has been in contact with her over the last week due to work related proximity. She ended up making friends with his friends, and everyone was chummy. Apparently her Mormon brother-in-law has been telling everyone in this chummy group that they should avoid her like the plague because she's the black sheep of her family, not a good person, etc... So while Mormons are superficially kind to one's face, they tend to be vicious behind the scenes. She, of course, was disappointed to find out about this, but amused that the various mutually shared friends are the ones that told her about the deceit. They chose to be loyal to her over the Mormon friend, whom they find odd.
And that, my friend, is the legacy of Mormonism. It destroys. It destroys families. It destroys friendships. And most importantly it destroys the person. It makes the person an enemy unto himself, and then subsequently unto others. There is no authenticity to Mormonism. It's just a shameful facade. What a shame.
I found this to be very true in the early days of my apostasy. This went on for about three years. By the mid-'90s, however, the vast majority accepted me, and accepted that I was unorthodox. One good friend became an even better friend, yet he was originally among the most outspoken about me being an "apostate". In my final return to the Church, in a futile marriage-saving exercise, he and his wife provided me with food and transport after my house was raided by my ex-wife and left empty. His change from the early years was remarkable. He died of cancer earlier this year. The reason I probably don't have much hassle with real life Mormons these days is because I don't see any. LOL. I did meet a couple a few months ago, but all conversation was on family, none on Church, and they never pressed me on anything. As long as we say "hi" and keep the conversation away from Church, I've never had a problem. I haven't seen missionaries in aeons, but if any were to call by, I'd happily talk to them.
dblagent007:
Did Scratch somehow get Ray's login information and post this while posing as Ray? It is a bit ironic that Scratch, the quintessential character assassin, has convinced you that FARMS is just a bunch of character assassins.
With a screen name like yours, I laughed at this post. I've actually been acting as a double-agent for Scratch for two years. How does my acting rate?
Schmo:
I agree about the majority of Mormons. I honestly do think they are, on the whole, a decent group of people. I think much of what they do that can be considered harmful is more a result of indoctrination than what they'd generally do given their own true motivations (not always, of course, but I'm speaking in generalities here). I would never say the kinds of things to a Mormon's face that I have said here; at least, not in the same blunt way. The fact is, most Mormons I meet are people I tend to get along with quite well, and I'm generally sad that they can't seem to see past the silliness of their religion when taken at face value.
Thanks for your comments, Schmo. You have a wicked sense of humour, and you've made me laugh more times than you'll ever know.
LoaP:
Perhaps ironically, from what I understand, Quinn still affirms he has a "testimony" of the gospel. Is that so?
Only weeks after I joined the Church, I learned a very valuable lesson from a missionary when I once similarly questioned a member's testimony. He turned to me, and this was probably the first time in the Church I'd ever been reproved, and said: "You NEVER question someone's personal testimony." And after that I never did. When belief doesn't match actions it may be hypocritical, but that doesn't mean they don't have a testimony.
SWSU:
Nice post, Ray.
Thank you.
The Dude:
That he's still gripped by a "testimony" is the real tragedy, if you ask me.
I completely agree. It makes you vulnerable to much of the stupidity in Mormon belief.
BCspace:
That is actually the only real problem with modern Mormonism, the lack of knowing all the aspects of Christ.
I recommend a thorough reading of the Sermon on the Mount. Have you read 3 Nephi? Well there you'll learn that this is all that matters for believers. It also says that that he who has the spirit of contention is not of me.
harmony:
It should be relatively easy to spot the most obvious Christ-like characteristics though... shouldn't it?
Hiding information is not God's way. Ridiculing others is not God's way. Spying on people is not God's way.
harmony's bluntness never fails to hit home.
Kerry:
JustMe:
This is just so not anywhere near my life time's experience. Sorry Ray, I just simply do't see eye to eye with you on this silliness against religion.
I take the Benjamin Franklin approach - let the masses stay in their religious delusions, because that way they'll keep being good and contribute to a better society. But I am very sympathetic to Paine, whom these remarks from Franklin were directed at. I think it was Paine who also said, "those who believe absurdities, will commit atrocities".
Mister Scratch (a.k.a. "Ray A"):
What about Ray's views on Mopologetics? It seems to me that his commentary vis-a-vis religion is very closely bound up with his views on FARMS and LDS apologetic practices.
Some may have missed my remarks on MDB, probably about a year or two ago, that I found certain aspects of apologetics very problematic and troublesome, but at the time I didn't want to say anything. Well now I've said it. I still agree with portions of DCP's "Reflections on Secular Anti-Mormonism", but the more I've thought about this, my conclusion is veering towards the dictum: "For every action, there's an equal and opposite reaction." Maybe Mormons need to start analysing why there's so much venom directed at them? The appalling attempt to financially influence Prop 8 to the tune of $20 million is one recent example. And when "anti-Mormon" ads appear, they cry foul. I'm not sure what causes this myopia.
Solo:
You're wrong!
Nobody destroyed Michael Quinn, but himself....
He might as well be one of those Houston Chronicle selling Hobos that I see everyday driving at work in every intersection.
Who'se fault is that?
What gives? The guy has as many decorated diplomas as my physician wife has which a room cannot suffice to hang them all!!!
He is a brilliant historian, somehow his maturity got arrested along the way.
Look at Grant palmer, Dan Vogel & many other writers...They didn't succumb into muck.
I almost can guarantee you that I'd get the the job in any Mormon stronghold Universities, Arizona, Utah State, Idaho...You name it. With that many credentials, accolades they'd jump on your lap.
If this guy chose to pussyfoot around life, he can only blame himself.
I don't buy any of the excuses anybody offers.
Grant Palmer was disfellowshipped, not excommunicated. He's retired, and didn't lose his career (probably because he wisely staved off criticism until he was sailing in safer waters, contra Quinn). Dan Vogel has been an ex-Mormon since, I believe his early 20s. Sure, you'd get a job anywhere, and so would I, but maybe Quinn is really devastated by all he's experienced. I suppose you're the sort of person who thinks that all Vietnam veterans should react the same way, and they'll all be able to just merrily "get on with life" and forget the bloodbaths they saw. I suppose you wonder why MMM still has such a traumatic effect on so many today?