A Challenge For Gazelam

[_Yoda]

To be actively involved in a homosexual relationship is spiritual death. The sooner its cut off the better, if not by repentance, than by death.

Your view of spiritual death is incorrect. Let's take a look at 1987 talk by
Dallin H. Oaks:

Our Savior has redeemed us from the sin of Adam, but what about the effects of our own sins? Since “all have sinned” , we are all spiritually dead. Again, our only hope for life is our Savior, who, the prophet Lehi taught, “offereth himself a sacrifice for sin, to answer the ends of the law”.

In order to lay claim upon our Savior’s life-giving triumph over the spiritual death we suffer because of our own sins, we must follow the conditions he has prescribed. As he has told us in modern revelation, “I, God, have suffered these things for all, that they might not suffer if they would repent;

If you believe that Kim's sister has suffered a spiritual death, then according to modern prophets and the scriptures, physical death is not the answer. Repentance is the answer. Repentance occurs in this life, not the next.

Also, if someone dies in ignorance of what is truly a sin, do you think that the Lord will take this into account? I tend to think the He will.

We have had this conversation before, Gaz. It is NOT up to you to judge. That is God's job, not yours. You do not have those keys.

Your priesthood keys exist for you and for your family..period. And, they certainly do not apply toward someone you don't personally know.

My reference from the Oaks talk was from the following URL:

article

I would suggest you read it. There is a lot of good information there.

[_Jersey Girl]

Stop it already Jersey Girl.

Is this a two birds one stone thing? Dis KA and groom Gaz?

You will not deconvert Gaz with your facade of nice. Is it worth the price of stepping on KA and her sister?

What on earth are you on about, Porter? Dis KA? Groom Gaz? Stepping on KA and her sister?

I engaged Gaz on the thread in question.

And you?

[_Jersey Girl]

Ray, it nearly breaks my heart when I read such things. When will the LDS Church adopt such a radical, ethical, and fair-minded viewpoint? When will we see this amongst the FARMS crew?

Probably never. Because the apologist of any religion isn't interested in Truth. He/she is only interested in preserving faith. So when someone like Quinn details how 19th century Church leaders lied, with meticulous documentation, don't expect a reply. Just expect the survellience cameras to roll into action. And if the historian's sexuality is "questionable", then you can discount every footnote or point he/she has ever made. Here is the general rule in the case of Quinn: Ignore the factual. Highlight the "fact" that a historian's sexuality, not research, determines his credibility. Never reply to his early work, but seek to discredit him on the basis that because he's trying to present documented truth, he's actually trying to justify his homosexuality.

Well, at least that's how it works in apologetics.

Nice edit there, Ray.

Could you explain to me why you think Scratch included me in the original post? I didn't quite understand what he was referring to when he wrote, "Ray, it nearly breaks my heart when I read such things" and included mention of me in his last line. The one you edited.

Your take?

[_Jersey Girl]

Sam

I'm sorry, but I find it so hypocritical when folks who were so peter priesthood before they found out the church wasn't true try to go back and act like they were always those liberal, rational Mormons before they left.

Many of you who are anti are so angry because you look back at those who are still LDS and realize that you used to be just like them. You dislike them so much because you see your old self in them.

Let's be real, folks.

Well said, Sam!

[_Gazelam]

Liz,

Is Kims sister ignorant of the covenants she has made? If she never got a spiritual witness and is ignorant, then maybe she has an out, otherwise shes screwed. yes she can repent, but the question is: does she have the integrity to do so?

Ill follow Kims advice and pray that she does.

Gaz

[_Ray A]

More "attitudes" to Gay people, Better Dead Than Gay?. Just a warning that some content is disturbing.

"To compound my problem, I was raised in a household with very strict religious and traditional values. Therefore, I grew up hearing that homosexuals were sick deviants, so I was terrified of letting anyone find out about these sick and evil feelings stirring inside of me. To give you an idea how strong that message was for me, I heard my mother say many times that she would rather see one of her sons dead than gay! ..."

In a room full of strangers, a man spoke up. "I'd rather see my son dead than gay," he said. His son, who was sitting next to him, was silent. His wife shrank in her seat. While many parents have become more accepting of their homosexual children, some parents still struggle, said Doug Bauder, coordinator for Gay, Lesbian, Bisexual and Transgendered Student Support Services.

"You don't have to kill GLBT people if you are able to convince them that they would be better off dead than gay. Many of them will destroy their own lives."

And evidence of that from an actual suicide note, which was reprinted with the permission of the deceased's relatives:

Dear Family and Friends,

I'm sorry it had to end this way but it was my fate. I couldn't handle life anymore. You see, the reason I ran away before to commit suicide is the same reason I did again. I'm gay. I never wanted to be and I always wished it would change, but it didn't. I wanted to live a normal life but God created me this way for some reason and there was nothing I could do to change it. I was born this way, believe me I would not choose this way of life for I know how hard and unaccepted it is. I'm painfully sorry you all had to deal with this but I couldn't deal with it. This way I could live a peaceful afterlife instead of a life of fear, agony, and manic depressiveness. Please realize I did not want to hurt anyone I just wanted to end my own pain. I love you all dearly and will someday see you all again hopefully with your understanding hearts and souls. I just hope God will bring me to heaven.

Love always and eternally,
Bruce

[_skippy the dead]

Liz,

Is Kims sister ignorant of the covenants she has made? If she never got a spiritual witness and is ignorant, then maybe she has an out, otherwise shes screwed. yes she can repent, but the question is: does she have the integrity to do so?

Ill follow Kims advice and pray that she does.

Gaz

I'm pretty sure that wasn't KA's advice.

[_moksha]

It is Christlike to pray for and assist those who are seeking to repent. It is also Christlike to stand up for a moral principle and fight against evil and pernicious behavior.

But it is very unChrist-like to hate this group of people and not be forgiving of them, even if you dislike their behavior.

[_Ray A]

Nice edit there, Ray.

Could you explain to me why you think Scratch included me in the original post? I didn't quite understand what he was referring to when he wrote, "Ray, it nearly breaks my heart when I read such things" and included mention of me in his last line. The one you edited.

Your take?

I'll go back and take a look later, Jersey Girl, but right now I have to get off my lazy butt and do some things. I probably edited it because I didn't think what I was addressing was pertinent to you. You should know I have my own mind, and I certainly don't have any ill feelings for you. If Scratch does, then I'm not going to address that portion of his post.

[_Gadianton]

"My hatred towards Gay..."

Christ didn't authorize you to hate gays. Even if you are right that by the church's pretended revelations you have the power to judge and fight against gays, nowhere in the scriptures or any GA talk have you been authorized to hate Gays or anyone else. That's a sin. And, by your logic, it would be better that you die today than continue to hate gay people.

Now, run along, go listen to your secular music, Tool, and many other bands that put human depravity, sexuality, drugs, and so on, on a pedestal. It's ok to justify your own sins and shortcomings and expect others to not make a big deal out of it while you seek death for those who break your favorite commandments.