Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

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_Ray A

Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

I don't know much about Rommelator, not as much as Chris would know since he's posting on MAD. This doesn't bother me as much as a lack of sleep does, by the way. I don't think I've made any character judgements, and I haven't had the time to properly go over his website (real world reality strikes). I'm dealing specifically with apologetic issues and the Book of Mormon/Roberts in particular. I see it this way, in swimming or gymnastics you can have 13-14 year old "kids" winning Olympic gold medals. They might be "kids", but age doesn't matter when you meet a rival in competition. Here's my view of Rom "the apologist". I think he probably views himself as a sort of young Hugh Nibley, an icon and "rising star" in apologetics, from what I gathered from the FAIR conference videos, and also commentary about Rom. Who knows, in ten years time he might have some "sudden realisations", just as David Wright and so many other young ambitious "future Nibleys" did. So I'm prepared to go easy on the "kid". There's probably not much of an age difference between Chris ("California Kid") and Rom, but I think Chris has a far more realistic grasp of apologetics than Rom does at this time, and that's the main difference.

The big question hanging over Rom at this stage, for me anyway, is whether he's going to resort to the ad hominem type of apologetics that attacks the man, and not the subject (or both). From his thread on MAD, it unfortunately appears so. It's nothing short of grandstanding. All he had to do was give me a nod and we could have had a civil debate. I also believe that what drives much apologetics is not facts, or realistic and balanced assessments which admit of "difficulties" (think of Roberts here), but "pure testimony". And that's the big problem. Once you have a "spiritual witness", it often turns out exactly as Shades described in his Exit Story:

Let's take, for example, the first, biggest, and most fundamental misconception promoted by the Church: Every educated, rational, intelligent, thinking person in the world bends the conclusion to fit the facts, right? If you think the world is flat, but sail off in one direction and wind up back where you started, then you bend your conclusion (the world must actually be round) to fit the facts (since I couldn't have come back here otherwise). Mormonism does the exact opposite: The facts are bent to fit the conclusion. The conclusion is that the Church is true, and all the facts are bent into the most ludicrous shapes to fit this conclusion. Post-Mormons have a phrase for it: "Mental Gymnastics." If some contrary evidence shows up which would lead one to believe that the Church isn't true, for example, all types of illogical arguments are postulated to discredit or reinterpret the evidence. When all else fails, one of a family of pat answers (secret weapons?) is whipped out: "There are some things we weren't meant to understand in this life," "God doesn't give us all the answers since he occasionally wants to test our faith," "Read your scriptures more and it will all make sense," or something like that. As for me, I could no longer do the mental gymnastics required to remain a believer. I had to start being honest with myself.


This is it in a nutshell, but having said that, there's nothing wrong at all with abiding by a spiritual witness. The problem arises when one tries to prove the Book of Mormon true through material evidences, or when material evidences are used as a "faith-booster", and sometimes shoddily so. I know apologetics is often qualified by the statement that they are not after proof, but I've never believed this. If the Book of Mormon had fatal flaws as a history text (and I believe it does), it would quickly be abandoned as history. And this is what truckloads of apologists-cum-critics have done, and I believe that Roberts was well on his way to doing this, if he had not already done it privately but maintained a "spiritual belief" in the Book of Mormon. Of course he would have spoken publicly of it "as if history" from Conference pulpits. Do you suppose he would express any doubts from a Conference pulpit? But in private conversation he offered radical re-interpretations of Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon, and not very long before he died. It is simplistic to paint a portrait of Roberts only from his public addresses, without seriously weighing his private reflections, but this is exactly what apologists have done, and this is what they do all the time - conveniently ignore or rationalise away competing evidences that would be weighed in the balance by any serious scholar. So it becomes a case of demonising the opposition, or just excommunicating them if they don't follow "the Party line". Once the serious challenges are out of the way from the view of the faithful, and relegated to unbalanced reviews in a medium solely there for "faith protection", the Titanic continues on at full speed ahead, and members will have to read more balanced critical reviews and opinions from other sources.
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _CaliforniaKid »

I think I've got four or five years on Rom. I'm rather glad that none of you were around back when I started posting on whyprophets.com, because I've come a long way since then both in terms of maturity and knowledge. I suspect that Rom, too, will mature as he ages. At least, he doesn't strike me as the type to regress. I could be wrong.
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Mister Scratch »

CaliforniaKid wrote:I think I've got four or five years on Rom. I'm rather glad that none of you were around back when I started posting on whyprophets.com, because I've come a long way since then both in terms of maturity and knowledge. I suspect that Rom, too, will mature as he ages. At least, he doesn't strike me as the type to regress. I could be wrong.


This is precisely why, in my view, Rommelator is such an interesting Mopologetic case study. Yes, he is young, so it will be fascinating to watch his development. Will he continue to follow in the steps of his idol, DCP? And if so, will he be able to resist the lure of the "dark side"---i.e., the temptation to engage in vicious ad hominem attacks and smear campaigns, as Ray suggested? Or, will he represent the vanguard of a new form of LDS apologetics that is kinder and gentler, and, dare I say...humbler?

by the way: CK, would you mind inviting Rom over here to this board? I would definitely be interested in "chatting" with him, as it were.
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _sunstoned »

Sethbag wrote:Anyone notice anything interesting about Rommel's decorations? There's another German General I'm thinking of who wore what Rommel's wearing in that photo, and I can't think of anyone else, though there might have been one or two others, max. Can anyone tell me what, specifically, I'm referring to, and name the other General?


Pour le Merite? Field Marshal Schorner had one also.
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Bond James Bond »

I wonder why I've never been considered a "kid". Me and CK are of the same age after all.
Whatever appears to be against the Book of Mormon is going to be overturned at some time in the future. So we can be pretty open minded.-charity 3/7/07

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_Ray A

Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Ray A »

I've just been to Rom's website and viewed one of the videos, on Hebraisms in the Book of Mormon. He does a good job of explaining it for the layperson, but he's going to have to go beyond this and tackle some bigger problems in future.

On This Page he explains why he's an apologist, and I hope Chris is right that this might just be some early immaturity (don't count on it):

Thus we see that as falsehoods and lies about the Truth of God continue to spread and multiply amongst the children of men, we, as Saints of the Lord in these latter days, have been given a charge to correct these errors, put down these criticisms and engage in these battles between truth and falsehood. For these reasons, I am proud to call myself a Mormon apologist and am not afraid to identify myself as a defender of the Prophet Joseph Smith, his revelations, life, legacy and ministry as well as the Lord Jesus Christ and his Church today.


While there are "backyard critics" who go to extremes, for example those who consider Brent Metcalf's or Dan Vogel's work as "pro-Mormon" (LOL), there are also some very credible critics. Perhaps Rom should have a look at Beastie's website, but I'm not sure how strong he is on Mesoamerica. Brant might be able to help him out here, although he's had a difficult enough time with beastie over the years. And things like her assessments of the Mountain Meadows Massacre are not exactly unsophisticated or light reading.

2. Silence criticisms. There are some loud (and sometimes obnoxious) critics of the Church who may tout some "problem(s)" with the Church's history, teachings or scriptures and dine to the ears of the public that these reasons alone constitute enough purpose to not join or even leave the Church. Critics often like to bring up topics such as Book of Mormon "anachronisms", Joseph Smith's character, the Book of Abraham, polygamy, Mountain Meadows Massacre or something similar and hail this "overwhelming evidence" as the final death nail for the LDS Church. Many of these criticisms, however, are unfounded and have been dealt with again and again by LDS researchers and scholars. Apologetics, therefore, helps in silencing these criticisms and giving answers to the objections raised by the critics.


Hopefully that phrase "silence criticisms" is a slip, but it's typical of the apologetic approach. Do you ever hear real scholars saying of oppositional theories "they must be silenced"? Yes, there some "loud and obnoxious" critics, and there are some loud and obnoxious apologists as well. And yes, the criticisms have been dealt with by apologists "again and again", almost as if what they say is "the final word".


Furthermore, as the Church expands and continues to interact with the public at large, so too will the anti-Mormon[5] industry. Therefore, a call has been issued by Elder M. Russell Ballard for members of the Church to "shar[e] the Gospel using the internet" and that "we cannot sit on the sidelines while we allow others - including our critics - attempt to define what the Church teaches." Elder Ballard further explains that while "we cannot answer every question, satisfy every inquiry and respond to every inaccuracy that exists..." we should nevertheless "continually share the gospel with others."[6]


Rom has a profound misunderstanding of what Elder Ballard is encouraging. He is not asking members to contend for the faith, but to share the faith! And the Book of Mormon explicitly condemns contention as being of "the spirit of the devil".

Here is what Elder Ballard said:

While we do speak authoritatively for the Church, we look to our responsible and faithful members to engage personally with blogs, to write thoughtful, online letters to news organizations, and to act in other ways to correct the record with their own opinions....The most important thing is that you let people know that you are a Latter-day Saint, and that your behavior and attitude always reflect the high standards of the Church and what is expected as a follower of the Lord Jesus Christ....No one likes to have religion thrust down their throats. Instead, allow people to see how your beliefs lift and shape your life for the better. How does the gospel help you as a parent engage with your teens? How do your values encourage you to participate in civic affairs? How has your experience as a home or visiting teacher enlarged your compassion or care for the sick and needy? How has your Church life helped you to avoid such things as pornography and immorality? How have family councils or home evenings helped you resolve differences of opinion with members of your family? How has your experience in speaking in church helped you address large public groups? Where did you learn to respect and not to criticize other faiths? And so on.”


There's nothing wrong with apologising for the faith, and "contending for the faith", which really means giving people a reason for why you believe, not trying to "silence them", or demonise them. And this is the huge turn around that contemporary apologetics will have to make. And it is, indeed, what DCP called "humble apologetics", and that also means that a person sexuality, choice of lifestyle, political preferences, alternative histories, etc., should not be seen as differences that arise out of "evil doing", but honest differences of opinion.
Last edited by _Ray A on Mon Nov 24, 2008 4:21 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:This is precisely why, in my view, Rommelator is such an interesting Mopologetic case study. Yes, he is young, so it will be fascinating to watch his development. Will he continue to follow in the steps of his idol, DCP? And if so, will he be able to resist the lure of the "dark side"---i.e., the temptation to engage in vicious ad hominem attacks and smear campaigns, as Ray suggested? Or, will he represent the vanguard of a new form of LDS apologetics that is kinder and gentler, and, dare I say...humbler?


I, too, shall watch with interest as young Stevo develops as an apologist.

Mister Scratch wrote:by the way: CK, would you mind inviting Rom over here to this board? I would definitely be interested in "chatting" with him, as it were.


Please do invite him over.
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Trevor »

Ray A wrote:I hope Chris is right that this might just be some early immaturity


Yes, the rhetoric is pretty thick--full of a sense of the great seriousness of his errand.
“I was hooked from the start,” Snoop Dogg said. “We talked about the purpose of life, played Mousetrap, and ate brownies. The kids thought it was off the hook, for real.”
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Sethbag »

sunstoned wrote:
Sethbag wrote:Anyone notice anything interesting about Rommel's decorations? There's another German General I'm thinking of who wore what Rommel's wearing in that photo, and I can't think of anyone else, though there might have been one or two others, max. Can anyone tell me what, specifically, I'm referring to, and name the other General?


Pour le Merite? Field Marshal Schorner had one also.

Yeah, that's it. Very interesting to see those pictures and see the Pour le Merite hanging there along with the Ritterkreuz. You kind of do a double-take when you see it in photos. Schoerner was a very evil dude, by the way. I like Rommel a lot, but Schoerner was pretty whacked. You read about "flying drumhead courts martial?"
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Re: Rommelator Lashes Out at Runtu, Ray A

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Ray A wrote:There's nothing wrong with apologising for the faith, and "contending for the faith", which really means giving people a reason for why you believe, not trying to "silence them", or demonise them. And this is the huge turn around that contemporary apologetics will have to make. And it is, indeed, what DCP called "humble apologetics", and that also means that a person sexuality, choice of lifestyle, political preferences, alternative histories, etc., should not be seen as differences that arise out of "evil doing", but honest differences of opinion.


I can't say that I disagree with anything you wrote, Ray. It seems to me that Rommelator is still in his "gestational" period as a Mopologist, which is to say that he still thinks that the main thing being defended is Church doctrine and history. In fact, that is not the case at all. Mopologetics is really much more about defending Mopologetics itself. I think that once he realizes this fact, he will pass over to the "dark side," and that he will become much more aggressive and angry in his approach.

Also, I think it is worthwhile to compare Rom with LifeOnaPlate---another young Mopologist who is not that much older that Rommelator. LoaP is clearly far more bitter and angry, far more prone to personal attack, and far more sensitive to being laughed at than Rommelator. In other words, LoaP seems to understand a bit better just what, exactly, is at stake.
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