Went through the Temple last week...

[_bcspace]

Depends on the Adamite theory you adhere to and/or the extent of the "state of no death".

I'm not following this, BC. When was Adam born/created? I take it you don't subscribe to the 4004 BC dogma, at ten o'clock in the morning.

I don't.

I accept evolution and the fact that homo sapiens have been here for hundreds of thousands of years. How I reconcile this is with 2 Nephi 2:22 which clearly differentiates between the created world and the world in the process of creation. In the later, the state of no death is not given as a property.

So with homo sapiens, I posit that the spirits inhabiting them were not literal spirit children of God. They were more along the lines of highly intelligent animals perhaps. When all was ready, homo sapiens with literal spirit children of God of God placed within them were born and placed into the Garden into a state of no death to await the fall.

This explains much, for example the fact that homo sapiens has been around for a long long time without any substantial development socially or technologically. Of course, this may put the fall of Adam and Eve closer to the time of the first civilization, Sumer, 8000 BC. Still manageable in my book and perhaps some other marker could place the fall closer to the standard figuring.

Who said anything about believing in absurdities? I know I have not advocated such, nor have I seen any indication that BC has done anything of the sort.

So you believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri?

Do the scriptures used to support that notion actually say the Garden was in Missouri? They don't. However, I would have no problem if it were.

Do you believe that homosexuals can be "cured"?

I believe, as per Ether 12:27, that God gives us various weakness, one of which may be homosexuality.

[_Ray A]

I'll tell you, furthermore, what I think about all this. I think some aspects of Mormon doctrine are so absurd that no rational thinking person can ever believe it. But I think Mormons "hang on" because of two things:

1. The need for certainty.

2. The need for a moral theology to keep their moral compass working.

They can't conceive of being "moral, charitable, just", unless there's some kind of eternal reward for all this work. There has to be something in it for them. Without this theology and its rewards for righteousness, it would not be worth it. In the end, it's just plain selfishness and vainglory, and the judgements made of others verify that. You can tolerate and apologise for the abuses of plural marriage, but you can't tolerate two people of the same sex in love. So that's where the "moral compass" takes on religious judgements.

And that's why I'm fast concluding that religion is a crock of self-aggrandising crap.

Your charity is empty, and your religious pretensions vain.
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[_bcspace]

The problem is that literalism still encroaches. I'm not sure you've thought this out, Wade. And I'm positive BC hasn't.

All in the doctrine Ray. Because the Church has a clearly defined standard for doctrine, I know what I can and can't speculate. You'd be wise to avail yourself of this standard when speaking to Mormons lest your conversation not make any sense.

But if in order to accomplish this you have to believe in absurdities, that's not fine.

Other than that which only an atheist would consider absurd, such as the existence of God, what absurdities are you talking about? Are you going to ascribe beliefs to me again that aren't LDS doctrine?

[_Ray A]

So with homo sapiens, I posit that the spirits inhabiting them were not literal spirit children of God. They were more along the lines of highly intelligent animals perhaps. When all was ready, homo sapiens with literal spirit children of God of God placed within them were born and placed into the Garden into a state of no death to await the fall.

This explains much, for example the fact that homo sapiens has been around for a long long time without any substantial development socially or technologically. Of course, this may put the fall of Adam and Eve closer to the time of the first civilization, Sumer, 8000 BC. Still manageable in my book and perhaps some other marker could place the fall closer to the standard figuring.

Don't tie yourself up in knots. Just say you prefer to believe in absurdity so you can justify your religious beliefs. Really, BC, when will you finally wake up to reality? So God's true spirit children never inhabited bodies until Adam. So what will happen to all the proto-humans who had no spirits? Where do they go?

[_wenglund]

How does the myopic "each after its own kind" phrase help spiritual growth?

By itself I am not sure that is does (at least not in any significant way), though it does tie in nicely with Paul's spiritual message about the resurrection in 1 Cor. 15 (particularly verses 36 - 48) as well as the Savior's remonstrance about trees and fruit in Matt 7 (particularly verses 16 - 20).

In short, it is a metaphoric way of suggesting that for us to reach the epitomy of spiritual growth (as exemplified in Christ) requires that we be "born after its own kind" (i.e. born of Christ).

Methinks "descent with modification" or something similar could better enhance spiritual growth. You believe truth and spiritual growth go hand in hand, don't you?

I believe certain truths may act as a means to the end of spiritual growth.

From what I have observed over the years, though, is that when truth, itself, becomes the end rather than the means to the end for some people, it may inadvertantly stiffle their spiritual growth.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Ray A]

Other than that which only an atheist would consider absurd, such as the existence of God, what absurdities are you talking about?

I am not atheist. But I find Mormon doctrine absurd. Totally absurd. I see some good people in Mormonism hanging on to absurdity to keep their "moral compass".

[_wenglund]

Who said anything about believing in absurdities? I know I have not advocated such, nor have I seen any indication that BC has done anything of the sort.

So you believe that the Garden of Eden was in Missouri? Do you believe that homosexuals can be "cured"?

I haven't formulated an opinion one way or another on those spiritually inconsequential notions. Why do you ask?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_Ray A]

I haven't formulated an opinion one way or another on those spiritually inconsequential notions. Why do you ask?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

Because it fits my theory, Wade, that you're rational enough to see the absurdities, but you hang on to Mormonism for "moral, ethical, spiritual" reasons, but when asked to justify absurdity, just like most Mormons, including DCP, you back away from explanations. It's a "spiritual thing".

[_wenglund]

I'll tell you, furthermore, what I think about all this. I think some aspects of Mormon doctrine are so absurd that no rational thinking person can ever believe it. But I think Mormons "hang on" because of two things:

1. The need for certainty.

2. The need for a moral theology to keep their moral compass working.

They can't conceive of being "moral, charitable, just", unless there's some kind of eternal reward for all this work. There has to be something in it for them. Without this theology and its rewards for righteousness, it would not be worth it. In the end, it's just plain selfishness and vainglory, and the judgements made of others verify that. You can tolerate and apologise for the abuses of plural marriage, but you can't tolerate two people of the same sex in love. So that's where the "moral compass" takes on religious judgements.

And that's why I'm fast concluding that religion is a crock of self-aggrandising s***.

Your charity is empty, and your religious pretensions vain.

Okay...so you have some deep-seated prejudices against religionist. But, I am not sure what value there is in you sharing that with me, or what pertinence it has to the subject of this thread?

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

[_bcspace]

Don't tie yourself up in knots. Just say you prefer to believe in absurdity so you can justify your religious beliefs. Really, BC, when will you finally wake up to reality?

What's wrong with God initiated evolution? Methinks atheism is the only argument you have.

So God's true spirit children never inhabited bodies until Adam. So what will happen to all the proto-humans who had no spirits? Where do they go?

I didn't say they had no spirits. I did say they they were likely on the level of highly intelligent animals. Where do dolphins and monkeys go when they die?