Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

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_Trevor
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:I found it incredibly hypocritical that Mopologists would publish attack pieces ("That Old Cash Nexus") against poorly funded Christian ministries, while, in fact, FARMS utilizes a multi-million dollar budget.


I thought that was interesting too. It certainly qualifies the perception that FARMS/NMI is a garage outfit. Having said that, I wonder whether those of us who see this as a revelation are not making the mistake of using past publications to construct our views and criticisms of these organizations as they exist now.
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_Mudcat
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Mudcat »

GoodK wrote:Hi Mudcat. Are you talking about CARM? Or LDS.Net?

MADB actually. I posted at CARMS a while back, but really wasn't to crazy about the place.... Lots of rhetoric but not enough substantive discussion for the most part.
Well, they must have thought it was a big issue because they insisted they didn't get paid for their work for a long time.

The problem isn't getting paid for your work, it's pretending like you don't get paid when you do - and then when it's discovered that you do get paid, you pretend like you get paid so little it's funny - and then when it's discovered that your account said you were paid $20,000 one year, you pretend like that is ridiculous and then start libeling the accountant - and on and on and on.

That is the issue.

Emphasis mine. Well I agree that on a personal level. If someone asks you if you get paid to do this or that and you don't want to disclose the information a more appropriate response would be, "It's none of your business."

That aside, its personal income of a private citizen. I don't think what I get paid to do what I do, is anyone's business either.

On a deductive side note, I doubt they get paid bookoos of cash. Here is why.

If we take DCP for instance, and I am speculating of course. We all know he is published, college professor. No doubt he receives a salary commensurate for such work. However, I am also of the opinion that the CoJCoLDS is about as tight as Dick's hat band with their money. So it is also my guess his salary is on the low end of that spectrum.

He writes lots of books. But who buys his books?
I have a copy of one. I only know a few other LDS in my area, but I have noticed that DCP isn't in their reading cue, nor do they own any of his books. Apologetics material isn't necessarily the sort of 'warm and fuzzy' faith promoting sort of stuff. Its typically analytical jargon that is put forth to defend issues, also in my opinion the audience for this sort of material is pretty small. Combining this with the fact that there are about 4 million active LDS and we also assume most of these folks are just every day rank and file citizens, the potential reader group for this literature is pretty small. I just don't see an LDS apologist making wads of cash for their authorship.

I suppose there are speaking engagements, debates, etc... that might receive payment as well. But given the small audience for this sort of thing I don't see that as a huge cash cow either.

In short, I am of the opinion that a fellow like DCP most likely makes a respectable living, if you stack him against the average American income. But I think if stacked him against a published professor in a different field (a law professor for instance) who had written as much as DCP and spoken as much as DCP. I doubt DCP would stack up near so well.

Whatever DCP makes for doing what he does isn't my business.

Well, considering the fact that virtually every active latter day saint believes that their church leaders don't get paid (while the president of the church lives in a multimillion dollar SLC penthouse) and they refuse to disclose their finances to the public, and they command their members to give 10% of their income to them -- I say yes, emphatically, it does matter how they spend it.


This is obviously a little different issue here. Mopoligists aren't 'Church Leaders' like I might think of the Quorum, Seventies, FP.... Not only can non-LDS not determine what the CoJCoLDS is doing with all those billions of dollars it has, but neither can its general membership. Regardless if what actually happens with all this cash, it leaves folks with a negative impression and gives plenty of room for speculation.

I suppose I don't see them as commanding membership to give 10% though. Simply because they have no real legal authority to do so. If a member had a big problem with it, they could always leave the organization.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mudcat, I appreciate the reasonable tone of your posts and your charity, but don't buy into the assumption that my salary comes from apologetics.

It simply doesn't.

No matter how often certain people here, who are not privy to my contract and who do not sit in during my meetings with my department chairman, insist that it does.

It comes from teaching scores of classes over the years on Arabic language and literature at all levels, on the history of the Near East, on the Islamic religion, on major texts in Arabic and Islamic philosophy, on the art and architecture of Islam. It comes from writing numerous articles about Islam, from writing two books about Islam, from editing and publishing fourteen bilingual books from the classical Islamic world, from giving papers on Islamic subjects at scholarly conferences across North America and Europe and the Near East, from serving on master's and doctoral committees related to the Near East at both BYU and the University of Utah, from supervising senior honors theses on Islamic topics, and etc., and so forth..

As I've said, if I were to cease doing apologetics, my salary would continue unaffected. If, however, I were to cease doing Near Eastern and Islamic studies, I would be fired.

Trevor wrote:It certainly qualifies the perception that FARMS/NMI is a garage outfit.

A perception that we have done absolutely nothing to foster.

Trevor wrote:Having said that, I wonder whether those of us who see this as a revelation are not making the mistake of using past publications to construct our views and criticisms of these organizations as they exist now.

A very insightful point. The fact is that FARMS began as -- literally -- a "garage outfit," and continued that way for quite some time. It was essentially such an operation when I first came aboard.

As things stand now, we have a small office staff, a small team of editors, an accountant. We publish two (and soon to be three) regular periodicals, and a fairly high number of books. Some of these are apologetic in nature, at least broadly speaking; many (e.g., the Middle Eastern Texts Initiative and Royal Skousen's critical text project) aren't apologetic at all. We've done three documentaries -- two of which were broadly apologetic, one of which wasn't Mormon-related -- and we're in the throes of producing several more. But all of this costs money, and we've never sought to conceal that.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Trevor wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:I found it incredibly hypocritical that Mopologists would publish attack pieces ("That Old Cash Nexus") against poorly funded Christian ministries, while, in fact, FARMS utilizes a multi-million dollar budget.


I thought that was interesting too. It certainly qualifies the perception that FARMS/NMI is a garage outfit. Having said that, I wonder whether those of us who see this as a revelation are not making the mistake of using past publications to construct our views and criticisms of these organizations as they exist now.


You have a good point, however it is important to realize that a lot of things still haven't changed. FROB is still publishing attack pieces. In some cases the l-skinny-style "hits" have been passed along to "non-affiliated" organizations like FAIR (e.g., Meldrum; the Tal Bachman/SP Keyes debacle.) Furthermore, there is a history here, and I think we can understand a great deal about modern apologetics (and yes, I would agree that the FARMS Review isn't quite as harsh, petty, or stupid as it has been in the past) by looking at where it came from.
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Mudcat wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:Not sure what you mean by "status quo," but I do not like LDS apologetics at all. I think it is a rotten enterprise, through and through.


By 'status quo' I meant that if the status quo is that if Mopoligists make money for their work, it pisses you off.
I suppose I don't really understand why though?


No, it doesn't "piss [me] off" that they get money. It "pisses [me] off" that they equivocate on and spin this fact.
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Mister Scratch wrote:No, it doesn't "piss [me] off" that they get money. It "pisses [me] off" that they equivocate on and spin this fact.

Scratch is irritated because I won't plead guilty to his never-ending accusations against me, one of which is that I've made lavish profits from apologetics.
_Trevor
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Trevor »

Mister Scratch wrote:You have a good point, however it is important to realize that a lot of things still haven't changed. FROB is still publishing attack pieces. In some cases the l-skinny-style "hits" have been passed along to "non-affiliated" organizations like FAIR (e.g., Meldrum; the Tal Bachman/SP Keyes debacle.) Furthermore, there is a history here, and I think we can understand a great deal about modern apologetics (and yes, I would agree that the FARMS Review isn't quite as harsh, petty, or stupid as it has been in the past) by looking at where it came from.


But if the particular point of dishonest you are detecting is in reference to FARMS/NMI financial resources, then the date of Midgley's piece on anti-Mormon ministries is vital in forming an accurate picture of the history, no?
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_harmony
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _harmony »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:No, it doesn't "piss [me] off" that they get money. It "pisses [me] off" that they equivocate on and spin this fact.

Scratch is irritated because I won't plead guilty to his never-ending accusations against me, one of which is that I've made lavish profits from apologetics.


I think the word "lavish" is unnecessary, and not part of Scratch's argument. It's not that you make a small amount from apologetics; it's that somewhere (MADB?) you said you make not one thin dime from apologetics (or something similiar).

The word "lavish" is just you using exaggeration to stay off the pin Scratch is trying to put into you.
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Mister Scratch »

Trevor wrote:
Mister Scratch wrote:You have a good point, however it is important to realize that a lot of things still haven't changed. FROB is still publishing attack pieces. In some cases the l-skinny-style "hits" have been passed along to "non-affiliated" organizations like FAIR (e.g., Meldrum; the Tal Bachman/SP Keyes debacle.) Furthermore, there is a history here, and I think we can understand a great deal about modern apologetics (and yes, I would agree that the FARMS Review isn't quite as harsh, petty, or stupid as it has been in the past) by looking at where it came from.


But if the particular point of dishonest you are detecting is in reference to FARMS/NMI financial resources, then the date of Midgley's piece on anti-Mormon ministries is vital in forming an accurate picture of the history, no?


Hmmm. Either I am not following your point, Trevor, or I disagree. Criticism of those who aren't "getting in line", using financial grounds, is still on-going. The apologists at FAIR, for example, really hammered on R. Meldrum, accusing him of being in "the game" purely for financial greed.
_Mudcat
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Re: Is Mr. Scratch bitter for DCP's remuneration for apoligia?

Post by _Mudcat »

Daniel Peterson wrote:Mudcat, I appreciate the reasonable tone of your posts and your charity, but don't buy into the assumption that my salary comes from apologetics.

It simply doesn't.

No matter how often certain people here, who are not privy to my contract and who do not sit in during my meetings with my department chairman, insist that it does.

It comes from teaching scores of classes over the years on Arabic language and literature at all levels, on the history of the Near East, on the Islamic religion, on major texts in Arabic and Islamic philosophy, on the art and architecture of Islam. It comes from writing numerous articles about Islam, from writing two books about Islam, from editing and publishing fourteen bilingual books from the classical Islamic world, from giving papers on Islamic subjects at scholarly conferences across North America and Europe and the Near East, from serving on master's and doctoral committees related to the Near East at both BYU and the University of Utah, from supervising senior honors theses on Islamic topics, and etc., and so forth..

As I've said, if I were to cease doing apologetics, my salary would continue unaffected. If, however, I were to cease doing Near Eastern and Islamic studies, I would be fired.

Hi DCP,

I certainly didn't mean to infer BYU was paying to doing anything outside of your field in Islamic Studies.

However, I was under the impression that your work as an apologist was somewhat of a separate issue. I assumed you got some sort of royalties for your published apologetics works. If not, my apologies. Certainly didn't mean to mischaracterize.

Mudcat
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