An evening with Daniel Peterson

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_The Dude
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _The Dude »

dblagent007 wrote:Now that Ray has gone off the deep end, it looks like the Dude has taken over the job of providing a token defense of Mormonism when challenged by ridiculous criticisms and logic (of course, the dude recognizes, like Ray, that there are other more legitimate reasons to criticize Mormonism).


I think there are more differences than similarities.
"And yet another little spot is smoothed out of the echo chamber wall..." Bond
_cksalmon
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _cksalmon »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Thanks for the excellent and fair-minded summary, Dr. Shades. This is precisely the sort of content we need more of on this board.


Isn't it just?

Look to your leader, denizens.

I personally have a limited supply of red ink. I don't know if it can last through Jan. 1, '09.

cks
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

CaliforniaKid wrote:Thanks for the excellent and fair-minded summary, Dr. Shades. This is precisely the sort of content we need more of on this board.

Amen.
_Dr. Shades
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Dr. Shades »

cinepro, CaliforniaKid, cksalmon, and DCP:

THANKS for the props!

(DCP, if there's anything I reported inaccurately, especially the Icelander/testing item, I respectfully request that you set the record straight. Thanks in advance.)
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Joey
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Joey »

Peterson wrote:I point out that, if I'm not mistaken, the lecture will shortly be up on the web somewhere, where critics will, to the point of nausea, be able to score points by pointing out the points on which I'm either incompetent or lying


The real point being that, along with works of Clark n Soreson on the ficticious Book of Mormon history, people and institutions at even the slightest academic levels will ignore it as irrelative and meaningless. Only in Provo would it find any daylight!

I have an aerospace engineer buddy who likes to frequently tease me with an intellectual and technical analysis as to why the wicked witch of the east could not actually fly on a broom around Oz (usually after we've shared a couple of beers together). Perhaps the Olivewood Bookstore would be the appropriate venue for his speaking engagement?!?!?
"It's not so much that FARMS scholarship in the area Book of Mormon historicity is "rejected' by the secular academic community as it is they are "ignored". [Daniel Peterson, May, 2004]
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

Dr. Shades wrote:cinepro, CaliforniaKid, cksalmon, and DCP:

THANKS for the props!

(DCP, if there's anything I reported inaccurately, especially the Icelander/testing item, I respectfully request that you set the record straight. Thanks in advance.)

You did a good job. I genuinely appreciate the lack of bile and the attempt to get it right.

Just two comments:

(1) The most reliable way to get the Iceland matter right would be to read Dr. Butler's essay ("Addressing Questions surrounding the Book of Mormon and DNA Research") in the book; in my lecture, I actually read the two most salient paragraphs of that essay. And, of course, it provides the bibliographical reference for people who might want to read the original study to which he refers.

(2) I want to make it really clear that neither my lecture nor the book represents anything remotely like an attack on science in general or the science of genetics in particular. (Not that you were doing this, but . . . I have not the slightest hostility to science -- I came to the university originally to study mathematics and cosmology, and still read fairly steadily on such subjects, as well as on other areas of science [particularly geology] -- and attempts to turn me into the Rev. Billy-Bob, hysterically waving his Bible against the eeevil scientists, simply have no foundation in any position I actually hold.)
_Dwight Frye
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Dwight Frye »

Readers may be interested in the write-up of the Olivewood Book event that appears on the Mormon Times site:

Book answers DNA critics of Book of Mormon
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret News
Friday, Dec. 05, 2008

PROVO, Utah -- Brigham Young University professor Daniel C. Peterson answers DNA critics of the Book on Mormon with a new collection of articles by leading scientists who are also Latter-day Saints.

Peterson introduced "The Book of Mormon and DNA Research," Thursday at the Olivewood Book Store. The book is the first to come out of the Maxwell Institute, of which the bookstore is affiliated, in a series of collections Peterson called "the best of the best."

Authors include John M. Butler, who holds a doctorate in chemistry; D. Jeffrey Meldrum, an Idaho State University associate professor of biology; David McClellan, a BYU assistant professor of integrative biology; and others.

Critics began using DNA research several years ago to challenge the apparent Book of Mormon claim that Native Americans have Israelite roots.

And while critics thought they had brought The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to its knees because no such DNA evidence exists in modern Indians, Peterson said their claims are flawed as illustrated in the new book.

Critics called the finding a Galileo event, referring to the time in history when Galileo Galilei discovered the sun was the center of the solar system.

Peterson argues that the science the book's critics use is unsound; Internet bloggers simply say it's "common sense" that if Israelite blood isn't found in the modern descendants of Book of Mormon people then the book is a fraud.

However, the collection of scholarly writings refutes that argument, Peterson said.

An associate with whom Peterson appeared on a coast-to-coast radio show, Mike Whiting, explained it this way, Peterson said: "Galileo got his science right."

One of the articles by Butler sites a study of 131,060 Icelanders whose ancestors were known by their record. But research into their DNA couldn't prove that their ancestors existed 150 years earlier based on the Y-chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA tests.

How then could scientists expect the people in the Book of Mormon to leave a genetic imprint on their descendants, Peterson queried. The markers simply disappear over time, he said.

Not only that, but the Book of Mormon doesn't contain enough genetic data to work with. For example, the females in the Book of Mormon inherited their DNA from the wife of Ishmael, an important figure early in the Book of Mormon.

"We know nothing about her," Peterson said.

"To assume all questions about Meso-America are answered by DNA is naïve," he said. "This is not a simple subject. There is a lot of naïvété in this subject."

The Book of Mormon population was relatively small when those people first landed on the shores of the New World, he said. At the time millions of native peoples already were living on the continent. Through intermarriage the genetic pool could have easily and quickly become "swamped," Peterson said.

Geographically, the Book of Mormon story takes place in a small area, which also would limit the gene pool.

"This is a tempest in a teapot," Peterson said, dismissing critics' claims. "There's not much there. So what (if most of the people) came from Asia."

The Book of Mormon is in the realm of faith. It has enough evidence for those who want to believe, he said, but not enough to prove it or force others to believe.

"That's by design," Peterson said.
"Christian anti-Mormons are no different than that wonderful old man down the street who turns out to be a child molester." - Obiwan, nutjob Mormon apologist - Fri Feb 25, 2011 3:25 pm
_harmony
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _harmony »

Dwight Frye wrote: The book is the first to come out of the Maxwell Institute, of which the bookstore is affiliated, ...


Another mystery solved. How apt.

"So what (if most of the people) came from Asia."


Can someone give me a reference for "others" in the Book of Mormon?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_harmony
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _harmony »

Dwight Frye wrote:Readers may be interested in the write-up of the Olivewood Book event that appears on the Mormon Times site:

Book answers DNA critics of Book of Mormon
By Rodger L. Hardy
Deseret News
Friday, Dec. 05, 2008

PROVO, Utah -- Brigham Young University professor Daniel C. Peterson answers DNA critics of the Book on Mormon with a new collection of articles by leading scientists who are also Latter-day Saints.

Peterson introduced "The Book of Mormon and DNA Research," Thursday at the Olivewood Book Store. The book is the first to come out of the Maxwell Institute, of which the bookstore is affiliated, in a series of collections Peterson called "the best of the best."

Authors include John M. Butler, who holds a doctorate in chemistry; D. Jeffrey Meldrum, an Idaho State University associate professor of biology; David McClellan, a BYU assistant professor of integrative biology; and others.

Critics began using DNA research several years ago to challenge the apparent Book of Mormon claim that Native Americans have Israelite roots.

And while critics thought they had brought The Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints to its knees because no such DNA evidence exists in modern Indians, Peterson said their claims are flawed as illustrated in the new book.

Critics called the finding a Galileo event, referring to the time in history when Galileo Galilei discovered the sun was the center of the solar system.

Peterson argues that the science the book's critics use is unsound; Internet bloggers simply say it's "common sense" that if Israelite blood isn't found in the modern descendants of Book of Mormon people then the book is a fraud.

However, the collection of scholarly writings refutes that argument, Peterson said.

An associate with whom Peterson appeared on a coast-to-coast radio show, Mike Whiting, explained it this way, Peterson said: "Galileo got his science right."

One of the articles by Butler sites a study of 131,060 Icelanders whose ancestors were known by their record. But research into their DNA couldn't prove that their ancestors existed 150 years earlier based on the Y-chromosome and the mitochondrial DNA tests.

How then could scientists expect the people in the Book of Mormon to leave a genetic imprint on their descendants, Peterson queried. The markers simply disappear over time, he said.

Not only that, but the Book of Mormon doesn't contain enough genetic data to work with. For example, the females in the Book of Mormon inherited their DNA from the wife of Ishmael, an important figure early in the Book of Mormon.

"We know nothing about her," Peterson said.

"To assume all questions about Meso-America are answered by DNA is naïve," he said. "This is not a simple subject. There is a lot of naïveté in this subject."

The Book of Mormon population was relatively small when those people first landed on the shores of the New World, he said. At the time millions of native peoples already were living on the continent. Through intermarriage the genetic pool could have easily and quickly become "swamped," Peterson said.

Geographically, the Book of Mormon story takes place in a small area, which also would limit the gene pool.

"This is a tempest in a teapot," Peterson said, dismissing critics' claims. "There's not much there. So what (if most of the people) came from Asia."

The Book of Mormon is in the realm of faith. It has enough evidence for those who want to believe, he said, but not enough to prove it or force others to believe.

"That's by design," Peterson said.


This is an example of how one-sided what Daniel and other LDS apologists currently do. Presentations with no question time, books and articles with no accompanying rebuttal, pontificating for an audience filled with like-minded folks who simply need reassurance that Daniel and Co have covered the bases... when there is absolutely no presentation of another side, so that people see that it's not quite as cut and dried as Daniel would like to make it seem.

Is this a case of "Daniel has spoken; the thinking is done"?

Smoke and mirrors, again.

But at least now we know why Olivewood, and not Barnes and Noble.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Mister Scratch
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Re: An evening with Daniel Peterson

Post by _Mister Scratch »

harmony wrote:
Dwight Frye wrote: The book is the first to come out of the Maxwell Institute, of which the bookstore is affiliated, ...


Another mystery solved. How apt.



What??? It seems that the plot has thickened. No wonder DCP has to go flying all across the country with Ed Snow: they needed to collect enough money so that they could have an entire bookstore in their pocket.
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