An evening with Daniel Peterson

[_Trevor]

I started the comment about Meldrum's bigfoot fetish because I heard him interviewed on NPR. The things he said and the way he said them added fuel to the fire of cryptozoological crankiness, in my opinion. It seems quite natural for his type to also have an interest in lost Lamanites and Nephites (and vice versa).

I do think there are certain personalities that incline more toward a will to believe the unlikely. Sometimes their faith is rewarded, like when the thing they believed existed crosses into the full light of day. The interesting thing is that there are plenty of folks without the same will to believe who will happily join them in acknowledging what the preponderance of the evidence points to at the appropriate time.

[_Tom]

Further, I've asked for any cogent response to the actual arguments set forth in the DNA article. None are forthcoming. I suspect literally no one participating in this thread with the exception of Dan Peterson and I have even read it.

Here is a link to the article: Who Are the Children of Lehi?

And information about their book is here.

[_Dr. Shades]

"You may embed only 2 quotes within each other."

Can we get this adjusted?

Yes, but we don't want to.

More than two nested quotes wastes bandwidth and makes the board look trashy.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

I refer you to Brant Gardner's excellent Second Witness. His commentary is also available in an earlier format online for free.

Two comments:

1) I have had numerous online conversations with Brant Gardner, some on this very topic, and I have never read anything that would convince me that he has identified Christianity in ancient America.

I haven't seen Gardner try to identify Christianity in ancient America. (He has discussed parallels but often notes such things are just as easily attributed to local religion unrelated to Palestine, etc.) To get a fee for his approach I recommend his work.

2) I get the apologists' frustration with critics not reading, LOaP, but I think I have demonstrated an exceptional (for this board) tendency to comment after having read things, and being one of the first to do so. So your failure to make any more specific citations appears to me to be rather rude.

Are you looking for crucifixes and Jesus fish, or what are we talking about?

I didn't just arrive on the scene of this ongoing argument yesterday, LOaP. I think my response sufficiently demonstrated that. You may, however, have inadvertently skipped over the part where I wrote "New World." I can also forgive you for not knowing a whole lot about the field of ancient history.

Perhaps I was unclear. My point is there are examples of ancient writing on plates, especially from the culture from whence the Book of Mormon came. There is mention in the book that plates are rather scarce. Why would we expect to find many or any examples of metallic plates in Mesoamerica?

Then you can also be forgiven for not understanding much about the field of archaeology. I will say, however, that if you are going to argue historical claims concerning the ancient world, both the fields of ancient history and archaeology would be useful tools for you.

If you had actually responded to my point your comments on archeology etc. would make more sense to me.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

"You may embed only 2 quotes within each other."

Can we get this adjusted?

Yes, but we don't want to.

More than two nested quotes wastes bandwidth and makes the board look trashy.

I didn't know bandwidth also had something to do with it. How about bumping it just to 3 max? Pretty please!

[_Dr. Shades]

I didn't know bandwidth also had something to do with it. How about bumping it just to 3 max? Pretty please!

No. Two nested quotes is more than enough to preserve context.

.

[_Trevor]

I haven't seen Gardner try to identify Christianity in ancient America.

Then why bring him up?

Are you looking for crucifixes and Jesus fish, or what are we talking about?

Common courtesy will do just fine... from you.

Perhaps I was unclear. My point is there are examples of ancient writing on plates, especially from the culture from whence the Book of Mormon came. There is mention in the book that plates are rather scarce. Why would we expect to find many or any examples of metallic plates in Mesoamerica?

Perhaps I need to make myself clearer. The absence of evidence is not evidence of absence, and it is also not a confirmation of presence. Presence of the necessary evidence in the New World is the first necessary step for me to think seriously about the Book of Mormon's Gold Plates being an ancient artifact.

If you had actually responded to my point your comments on archeology etc. would make more sense to me.

You first. Bringing up things that very clearly are not a real response to my requests was the first step down this path. The simple fact is that we both know that you do not have the evidence I am asking for. Such evidence is pretty standard for a serious discussion in my field. I understand that it is not necessary in Mormon apologetics. But, claims of antiquity by Mormon apologists are liable to be scrutinized by those with expertise in the relevant fields.

I fully recognize and respect the difference between what Mormon apologists do qua Mormon apologists and what ancient historians do in the practice of their profession. For you, faith is an evidence, faith in Mormonism and faith that its important claims will eventually be vindicated by the best scholarship. When I approach Mormonism's claims concerning antiquity as an ancient historian, I do not bring this faith to the discussion. My point is not to invalidate Mormonism, but to rein in the faulty perceptions of those who do not understand these distinctions. You know, the person who pipes up in GD class, saying, "archaeology proves the Book of Mormon is true."

[_silentkid]

I was only partially joking when I asked if Dr. Peterson could upload an image of his book of DNA essays on Amazon. Post a picture, write up a description. If you're going to make your book available on Amazon, at least make it look somewhat professional. It's almost like you don't care if people don't show an interest in your work because then you can claim, as evidenced in this thread, that no one pays attention to your work. Nice.

[_The Dude]

Further, I've asked for any cogent response to the actual arguments set forth in the DNA article. None are forthcoming. I suspect literally no one participating in this thread with the exception of Dan Peterson and I have even read it.

Here is a link to the article: Who Are the Children of Lehi?

And information about their book is here.

Okay, I read the article. It's fine scientifically speaking. Basically, Meldrum and his co-author set up the idea that we shouldn't even expect to find genetic evidence of Book of Mormon people because the children of Lehi were just an Abrahamic "leavening" among Native American populations. Pretty standard for Maxwell Institute apologetics on the DNA issue; nothing controversial as far as science goes. Theologically or doctrinally speaking, this could be a problem for some critics and believers, but it does fit the science quite well. Also, they do a good job of debunking the idea that the X haplotype could represent Middle Eastern influence. Not everybody at FARMS/MI or on MADB seems to be aware of this, since they keep bringing it up. "Nice job" to Meldrum for killing it one more time.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I was only partially joking when I asked if Dr. Peterson could upload an image of his book of DNA essays on Amazon. Post a picture, write up a description. If you're going to make your book available on Amazon, at least make it look somewhat professional. It's almost like you don't care if people don't show an interest in your work because then you can claim, as evidenced in this thread, that no one pays attention to your work. Nice.

Whatever images are or are not up on Amazon.com, so far as I'm aware, are Amazon's doing, not ours.

Our business-savvy director of publications told me a couple of months ago, in another context, that she doesn't like Amazon and that publishers generally don't, because the profit margin of books sold on Amazon is so painfully low. She made it quite clear that she doesn't deal with Amazon.

Unless I'm mistaken -- and I may be, since I have absolutely nothing to do, these days, with marketing our publications -- Amazon doesn't ask our permission to carry our books and we have absolutely nothing to do with what they put up on their site about our books.