When DID Joseph see God and Christ?

[_squawkeye]

"In 1820 Joseph Smith claimed that he saw God and Jesus Christ."

I know this is the current official story but from looking at early writings it appears this was not known, or the story was not fleshed out to include both of them, for some time.

Early Mormon Missionaries (no early LDS as that name wasn't until 1836-38? can't remember) did not preache this first vision story of God and Jesus appearing to Joseph. It seems it was unknown to the members and converts of that time.

When did the current version actually appear?

[_Dr. Shades]

It appeared in 1838.

[_Lamanite]

Actually a case can be made for a two personage account in the Joseph Smith 1832 account written in his own hand, (The only one written in his hand).

But I think Dr. Shades is mistaken regarding the 1838 assertion. The first account I can find, is the November 9, 1835 account that was dictated to Warren Parrish. This journal entry was sparked by a visitor named Robert Matthias who claimed to be Joshua, a Jewish minister, and speaks of two distinct Personages.

Then their is the 1838 "official" version, which is a ridiculous title in my opinion, which was dictated to James Mulholland, and also mentions two personages.

The above can be found in "Opening the Heavens, Accounts of Divine Manifestations, 1820-1844; Edited by John W. Welch". Which in my opinion is an invaluable resource to Mormon source material. Big UP to LOAP for that one!

Or I can probably transcribe the relevant portions if you are sincerely interested.


Big UP!

Lamanite

[_cinepro]

"In 1820 Joseph Smith claimed that he saw God and Jesus Christ."

I know this is the current official story but from looking at early writings it appears this was not known, or the story was not fleshed out to include both of them, for some time.

Early Mormon Missionaries (no early LDS as that name wasn't until 1836-38? can't remember) did not preache this first vision story of God and Jesus appearing to Joseph. It seems it was unknown to the members and converts of that time.

When did the current version actually appear?

As far as I can tell, the First Vision may violate the Divine Law Of Witnesses, so the entire story is suspect.

[_harmony]

As far as I can tell, the First Vision may violate the Divine Law Of Witnesses, so the entire story is suspect.

Bible = unreliable. At least, that's what everyone from the prophet to the smallest child in Primary would say.

Joseph said it, so it's law, truth, righteousness... teflon-coated.

[_Lamanite]

"In 1820 Joseph Smith claimed that he saw God and Jesus Christ."

I know this is the current official story but from looking at early writings it appears this was not known, or the story was not fleshed out to include both of them, for some time.

Early Mormon Missionaries (no early LDS as that name wasn't until 1836-38? can't remember) did not preache this first vision story of God and Jesus appearing to Joseph. It seems it was unknown to the members and converts of that time.

When did the current version actually appear?

As far as I can tell, the First Vision may violate the Divine Law Of Witnesses, so the entire story is suspect.

Unless of course the second witness is the Holy Ghost, as was/is the case with me.

Big UP!

Lamanite

[_Lamanite]

As far as I can tell, the First Vision may violate the Divine Law Of Witnesses, so the entire story is suspect.

Bible = unreliable. At least, that's what everyone from the prophet to the smallest child in Primary would say.

Joseph said it, so it's law, truth, righteousness... teflon-coated.

Flyby claptrap. Seriously

by the way nice to meet you Harmony!

Lamanite

[_harmony]

Flyby claptrap. Seriously

by the way nice to meet you Harmony!

Lamanite

Flyby? I've been here for years, Lamanite. If you read under my name, it says "moderator". It also says "God".

Claptrap? I know exactly how the church works. And even when I don't agree, my TR is as good as anyone's.

What exactly did you consider 'claptrap'? Unless, of course, your post was just flyby claptrap....

[_cinepro]

Unless of course the second witness is the Holy Ghost, as was/is the case with me.

Big UP!

Lamanite

But if that's the case, then there isn't actually any "Divine Law of Witnesses", because anyone can claim to have the Holy Ghost as the second witness. It becomes almost as meaningless as the phrase "tender mercies".

As it's described, the witnesses are always corporeal, but if you want to stretch it to include phantasmic entities, more power to you.

[_Lamanite]

Unless of course the second witness is the Holy Ghost, as was/is the case with me.

Big UP!

Lamanite

But if that's the case, then there isn't actually any "Divine Law of Witnesses", because anyone can claim to have the Holy Ghost as the second witness. It becomes almost as meaningless as the phrase "tender mercies".

As it's described, the witnesses are always corporeal, but if you want to stretch it to include phantasmic entities, more power to you.

I think the transfer of keys/authority has always required two mortal witnesses. But where an individual testifies of an event, then the witness of the Holy Ghost has always been the second witness. At least that's my understanding.

The most fantastic part of spirituality is that anyone can claim anything. But the most important part of Mormonism is that no one has ever pointed to a post graduate degree from Harvard divinity, or a creed, or a moon rock etc., to establish authority. Usually it's just some lay person who says, "this is what I believe, ask God and see if its right for you". At anytime one can approach God and see if "it is not true".

And cinepro, if he told you its not true...I'd listen.

Big UP!

Lamanite