Spong on Bible's evolution

[_Roger Morrison]

How long before Christianism in general & Mormonism specifically will see the truth??

Give it another 2,000 years, Roger.

Ray, you really know how to make an old optimist weep How's about 25? 50? OK, 100!? Look back a century...surely 2108 will not harbour the same heaven/hell Pirates fighting scientific realism? Please "God" NO!! ;-)

Roger

[_Ray A]

Ray, you really know how to make an old optimist weep How's about 25? 50? OK, 100!? Look back a century...surely 2108 will not harbour the same heaven/hell Pirates fighting scientific realism? Please "God" NO!! ;-)

Okay Max[well Smart], I'll do a deal - 50 sounds okay to me.

I've read several of Spong's books and they've all made me think quite deeply, as well as Crossan and Borg, but they're still, I think, in a distinct minority opinion. It seems like most would rather have it all in black and white. They don't rush to the Spongs, but the Ted Haggards.

And just a reminder: I Think I Know What You Did Last Night.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Hi Roger,

A couple thoughts.

Prior to the 2nd century BCE, the Jewish people spoke little about life after death. The only concept generally abroad was that of "Sheol." Sheol was located in the "middle of the earth." It was not a place of reward or punishment, it was simply the abode of the dead. No one looked forward to it. No one was comforted by it. Everyone who died went to it. If it was described at all, it was described as shadowy or as shades of life, ghostlike with no sense of joy.

Philip S. Johnston in his book Shades of Sheol made a robust case to the effect that only evil people in the Old Testament go to Sheol. The good ones, like the patriarchs and righteous kings, "slept with their fathers." Those who, like Gilgamesh, strive after immortality are shown in ancient Middle Eastern literature to be grasping at a finally elusive and impossible goal. It seems that the inhabitants of ancient Israel were more willing than we today to be at peace with the reality and finality of death.

In college I read a book about death and afterlife in the ancient world. While reading this book, it suddenly struck me that belief in an afterlife had obvious evolutionary advantages, in the sense that warriors would fearlessly go out and defend their families and societies because they were secure in the guarantee of immortality. That seriously rocked not only my belief in the afterlife, but also my belief in God. I went home and wrote out a very firm affirmation of my atheism. Of course, I was a theist again within a few days, but my faith was never the same again.

If you're interested, a while back I wrote up sort of a secular alternative to belief in the afterlife that draws on Einsteinian insights into space-time.

[_Pokatator]

Idaho, on my annual anniversary trip. Should be lovely with all that snow in the mountains.

What part of Idaho? Here in southeast we have next to nothing. I drove to Moscow for Turkey Day through Cascade/Riggins it was next to nothing all the way. I don't think they have received much since then either. I wish it would snow and I hope you have a great time over the holiday. We are supposed to get snow here this weekend but not much. I hope they get more where you are going.

Blessings to you and yours......

[_Roger Morrison]

Hi Roger,

A couple thoughts.

Prior to the 2nd century BCE, the Jewish people spoke little about life after death. The only concept generally abroad was that of "Sheol." Sheol was located in the "middle of the earth." It was not a place of reward or punishment, it was simply the abode of the dead. No one looked forward to it. No one was comforted by it. Everyone who died went to it. If it was described at all, it was described as shadowy or as shades of life, ghostlike with no sense of joy.

Philip S. Johnston in his book Shades of Sheol made a robust case to the effect that only evil people in the Old Testament go to Sheol. The good ones, like the patriarchs and righteous kings, "slept with their fathers." Those who, like Gilgamesh, strive after immortality are shown in ancient Middle Eastern literature to be grasping at a finally elusive and impossible goal. It seems that the inhabitants of ancient Israel were more willing than we today to be at peace with the reality and finality of death.

In college I read a book about death and afterlife in the ancient world. While reading this book, it suddenly struck me that belief in an afterlife had obvious evolutionary advantages, in the sense that warriors would fearlessly go out and defend their families and societies because they were secure in the guarantee of immortality. That seriously rocked not only my belief in the afterlife, but also my belief in God. I went home and wrote out a very firm affirmation of my atheism. Of course, I was a theist again within a few days, but my faith was never the same again.

If you're interested, a while back I wrote up sort of a secular alternative to belief in the afterlife that draws on Einsteinian insights into space-time.

Thanks Cal-Kid, interesting, thought stimulating blog. Now on my fav-list. Will post more later. Curious about your "writing"???

Warm regards,

Roger

[_harmony]

Idaho, on my annual anniversary trip. Should be lovely with all that snow in the mountains.

What part of Idaho? Here in southeast we have next to nothing. I drove to Moscow for Turkey Day through Cascade/Riggins it was next to nothing all the way. I don't think they have received much since then either. I wish it would snow and I hope you have a great time over the holiday. We are supposed to get snow here this weekend but not much. I hope they get more where you are going.

Blessings to you and yours......

I have family strung throughout southern and eastern Idaho, in Jerome, Blackfoot, Boise, Mt Home, and Rupert, so I know of which you speak. I have no one in Pokey, but I've been through there on occasion.

I was in Moscow the Sunday after Turkey Day to bless the latest granddaughter.

We went to Coeur d'Alene. Saw what there was to see in a couple of days, and came home a couple of days early. My youngest is being deployed in March, and the unit was having the family briefing that weekend, so I wasn't able to relax much while on vacation. I'm still not able to relax much. I just know I'm not going to do this very well.

[_CaliforniaKid]

Curious about your "writing"???

I seem to have misplaced it, but it was just a journal entry. I wrote that I didn't think I could ever go back to being a theist. (That didn't last very long.) It wasn't just the afterlife epiphany that did it; that was merely the culmination of a lot of soul-searching I'd been doing.

[_Roger Morrison]

From Cal-Kid, above, to which i have added emphasis:

Philip S. Johnston in his book Shades of Sheol made a robust case to the effect that only evil people in the Old Testament go to Sheol. The good ones, like the patriarchs and righteous kings, "slept with their fathers." Those who, like Gilgamesh, strive after immortality are shown in ancient Middle Eastern literature to be grasping at a finally elusive and impossible goal. It seems that the inhabitants of ancient Israel were more willing than we today to be at peace with the reality and finality of death.
Saducees seemed more inclined this way than the Pharasees. Paul being a P. would naturally gravitate to Christianism. Your thoughts below re Military purpose seem very practical. More to devoted Moslems than to half-believing Christians. But hope does provide hope...

In college I read a book about death and afterlife in the ancient world. While reading this book, it suddenly struck me that belief in an afterlife had obvious evolutionary advantages, in the sense that warriors would fearlessly go out and defend their families and societies because they were secure in the guarantee of immortality. That seriously rocked not only my belief in the afterlife, but also my belief in God. I went home and wrote out a very firm affirmation of my atheism. Of course, I was a theist again within a few days, but my faith was never the same again.

Recently I've been thinking theism--"God"--as a generic term for Science-@-work or maybe better as applied-science in our Universe--Universal Laws???

Lately I've been exposed to some Old Evangelist rantings. Yelling, jumping, arm-waving for "GOD" who gives EVERYTHING--to THE righteous who've turned from their sin; as far as they can, that is...

Seems to me I could go through the same antics about "Scientific Laws/Discoveries" (Applied science) whether in awareness or ignorance, that really does provide life to all, saint or sinner.

So, does a theist get their sustance from a "God" worshipped, from nature utilized, or science applied?

Seems a "God"-Teddy-Bear might be comforting to cuddle. But applied Science is what keeps us alive and advancing in knowledge and truth. Even to the extent of understanding theism as a primitive's substitute for scientific-mysteries. As we know better, we do better; depending on established fact, rather than on imagined, hoped for, magical results...

Back to Spong: What evolves first, the Bible or humanity?? Can there be one without the other??

Warm regards,

Roger :-)

[_Calculus Crusader]

How long before Christianism in general & Mormonism specifically will see the truth??

You and execrable Spong need to get over yourselves. Christians are not required to believe that Judaism/Israelite religion/Hebrew religion had everything right before the advent of Jesus Christ. Moreover, if you actually bothered to read the Bible, instead of Spong's cliff notes, then you would see that belief in bodily resurrection goes back at least as far as the 8th century B.C. See Isaiah.

When will pretentious liberals see the truth??

[_CaliforniaKid]

The exact date when the doctrine of resurrection originated is highly controversial. Some scholars place it no later than the Maccabean period. Others find it, as you do, in the Psalms or Isaiah or Ezekiel. The broad consensus seems to be upon a later date for the doctrine, with earlier apparent references to resurrection being metaphors for national restoration.