"Live by the lamp of their own conceit"

[_Daniel Peterson]

Ray, you don't know my heart.

But your declaration is fascinating, and I can now see better why you so passionately defend harmony's judgmentalism. You share it.

And you don't know mine.

I don't claim to, and never have.

Yes, Dan. Harmony is nothing but "a vocal anonymous poster on a marginal message board". (Showing what you really think??)

Showing all I can know, Ray, positioned as and where I am.

I've never met her. I know nothing about her daily life. Nothing.

Which is why I don't presume to judge her off-line life.

How much more filled with self-importance do the GAs become?

Ray, we've been through this cycle twice now.

You first wrote to me in a friendly manner years ago. Then you came to dislike me. Your notes to me became vitriolic and hateful. Then you became a kind of friend again. Now . . .

I wish you all the best, Ray. I really do.

I tried to be a friend to you. I've failed, and I'm sorry for it. I meant it genuinely.

The drive down to Wollongong ate up the one free day my wife and I had during our entire stay in Australia. I didn't resent it. I had looked forward to it, and I enjoyed it enormously. It was fun to meet you. However, when I read, some time back, that you had only accepted my gift to you out of "politeness," and that, in your view, I was only seeking to convert you back to Mormonism rather than because I valued you as an individual, I realized that something had changed. (Or, perhaps, your friendliness to me and my wife really was feigned.) But I can assure you that I didn't expect you to come back to the Church merely because I visited you; truthfully, I didn't really expect you to return at all, although, of course, it would have pleased me. I was simply visiting an on-line friend.

Harmony? Who is Harmony? Can there any good thing come out of Nazareth? Or some US state?

Good night, Ray. Really.

[_Ray A]

Many Seventies do this as well. They take their job seriously but they CAN'T visit individually with everyone. You've had an offer that would dodge the random factor and you still turn it down.

I'd like to offer to help too. I have enough Marriott Points to get you a room at a hotel for your stay and might be able to get you a rental car but I can't promise that, I'd need to check.

It's not harmony's "obligation" to "take up the offer". Instead of inviting her to crawl away from her family, her responsibilities, and the fact that she has to grind like ordinary people to pay her way through life by hard work and can't afford to be jetting around the world at whim, to at least ask an apostle to visit her. Too busy? Too busy doing what? "Spreading the message of Christ"? LOL.

Get real, Nehor.

[_Ray A]

It was fun to meet you. However, when I read, some time back, that you had only accepted my gift to you out of "politeness," and that, in your view, I was only seeking to convert you back to Mormonism rather than because I valued you as an individual, I realized that something had changed. (Or, perhaps, your friendliness to me and my wife really was feigned.) But I can assure you that I didn't expect you to come back to the Church merely because I visited you; truthfully, I didn't really expect you to return at all, although, of course, it would have pleased me. I was simply visiting an on-line friend.

Dan, you must be naïve. Did you not read my numerous critical commentary on the Book of Mormon as "literal history" on FAIR? Do you not remember, when several months before your visit, I defended Dan Vogel aganist attacks from you and Bill Hamblin? Do you not remember me questioning you about the excommunication of Simon Southerton?

You have a selective memory, Dan. But maybe you thought I could be "won", in spite of all this, and ignored it.

You would not have visited me unless you thought there was some chance that I could be reactivated and once again become a true believer. That's why you offered me the DVD "Journey of Faith".

You almost entirely misread me. I liked and admired you as a person, not because you were a Mormon. I thought, and still do think, that you have a great intellect. And I made it clear in at least two emails that our visit was only to be a social one. Yet the elderly missionary couple who accompanied you and your wife were asking me "can we visit later sometime?"

What was my response, Dan?

And what did I tell you about why I could not accept Mormonism? And probably never would accept it?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Apostles do meet with ordinary members of the Church. Apostles do visit ordinary members' homes. (I'm one of those ordinary members.)

You are not an ordinary member. You are a BYU professor. You are a world-renowned expert in your field. You know at least 10 of the 12 and probably have a passing acquaintance with all of them.

The visit of which I speak occurred years ago. The apostle who visited my home didn't know me from Adam. There are 1200-1300 full-time faculty members at BYU, plus several hundred part-timers and adjuncts, and at least that many adminstration and staff. Simply working at BYU doesn't admit anybody to the elite.

The fact remains that apostles do visit, and visit with, ordinary members.

And exactly when was the last visit to an ordinary member's home by an apostle? Not a stake president; not a bishop... an ordinary member, like maybe the bulletin lady or the ward webmaster. When? And where? And more importantly: why?

Very possibly today. I wouldn't be even slightly surprised.

Why? I don't know. They don't exactly sound trumpets before themselves when they visit hospitals, spend time with widows and shut-ins, etc. But I know they do it.

[_Ray A]

. by the way, your ego is showing. ;)

And LOAP has no ego. He's entirely selfless and "dedicated to the cause of Christ".

Grow out of your insularity, Life.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I've simply got to go to bed.

Dan, you must be naïve. Did you not read my numerous critical commentary on the Book of Mormon as "literal history" on FAIR? Do you not remember, when several months before your visit, I defended Dan Vogel aganist attacks from you and Bill Hamblin? Do you not remember me questioning you about the excommunication of Simon Southerton?

You have a selective memory, Dan. But maybe you thought I could be "won", in spite of all this, and ignored it.

I'm not naïve.

I was aware of all of that.

I didn't think it at all likely that you could be brought back to the Church.

I don't have a selective memory. You're attributing motives to me that I didn't have, and constructing a theory to account for pseudo-facts that you yourself have invented and ascribed to me.

You would not have visited me unless you thought there was some chance that I could be reactivated and once again become a true believer.

I visited you because we'd been in contact by snail mail and by e-mail for many years. I thought it would be pleasant to meet.

I've told you that.

You seem to believe that I'm lying, and you're certainly not going to hear many dissenting voices about that on this message board, but I didn't spend that day visiting you out of any expectation that it would bring you back to the Church.

I've been happy to meet Sethbag and Scottie and Shades and other critics from this board. Runtu and I have spoken of getting together sometime. Would I be pleased if they returned to the Church? Sure. Is that my only motive for enjoying putting a face to the name? Not at all. I like people.

That's why you offered me the DVD "Journey of Faith".

That DVD was what I offered to all of the members of the Church who hosted me in various ways during that tour of Australia. I chose it because it was new, because it was lightweight, and because I rather liked it. My wife and I bought them and carried them with us in our luggage as thank-you gifts. (The non-members got copies of my Islamic Translation Series texts, shipped by mail ahead of time.) I gave a copy to you, as well, because I knew you were interested in the Book of Mormon and because, accordingly, I thought you might find it interesting.

You almost entirely misread me.

I don't think I misread you even slightly.

I even anticipated that you would eventually return to a hostile phase, since we'd been through one before. I predicted that to my wife, and she remembers it.

I liked and admired you as a person, not because you were a Mormon. I thought, and still do think, that you have a great intellect. And I made it clear in at least two emails that our visit was only to be a social one. Yet the elderly missionary couple who accompanied you and your wife were asking me "can we visit later sometime?"

They were a missionary couple. That's what missionary couples do. They didn't know you. I didn't prescribe for them what they should say. They came along because the Sydney Public Affairs office was taking care of me for a couple of days. They were Public Affairs missionaries, and they offered to drive me and my wife down to Wollongong.

What was my response, Dan?

Your response was No. Which was what I expected.

And what did I tell you about why I could not accept Mormonism? And probably never would accept it?

I don't recall. It didn't stick out because it wasn't surprising.

Good night, Ray.

I wish you all the best.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

. by the way, your ego is showing. ;)

And LOAP has no ego. He's entirely selfless and "dedicated to the cause of Christ".

Grow out of your insularity, Life.

That last sentence would have worked just as well without the comma.

[_harmony]

That's why you offered me the DVD "Journey of Faith".

That DVD was what I offered to all of the members of the Church who hosted me in various ways during that tour of Australia. I chose it because it was new, because it was lightweight, and because I rather liked it. My wife and I bought them and carried them with us in our luggage as thank-you gifts. (The non-members got copies of my Islamic Translation Series texts, shipped by mail ahead of time.) I gave a copy to you, as well, because I knew you were interested in the Book of Mormon and because, accordingly, I thought you might find it interesting.

Honestly, giving a non-member, and an ex-member at that, a church DVD as a hostess gift is simply beyond my comprehension. I cannot imagine a more inopportune gift. A gift for the host/hostess is usually something that they would like, not something the guest thinks they need.

Any gift I take as a thank you (which a hostess gift is) would likely be something from my home state that I think the hostess might not normally buy or even know exists... like dried salmon or chocolate covered dried fruit or a nice vinegar from one of our wineries... certainly not a church DVD.

Good grief. Daniel, you are so lame sometimes. Next time, ask someone who isn't a BYU professor/apologist what kind of hostess gifts to take. Your host/hostesses will really appreciate it.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

she's as LDS in substance than you or anyone else here.

Apart from the fact that she rejects many if not most LDS claims, that may well be true.

She does. You, I'm not so sure about.

The "leaders" are not the Church, they are the institution, and there's a big difference.

That's rather facile. In Mormonism, as believing Mormons understand it, separating the prophets and apostles from Mormonism isn't so easy.

That's part of the problem with today's Church -- we've set the leaders on such a high pedestal they're viewed almost as demigods. The Gospel is very different that the institutional, managerial, corporate decisions made by men in dark suits and white shirts.

And I'm not sure that I understand your apparent distinction between "the Church" and "the institution."

Obviously.

You mean like modern-day Native Americans being "Lamanites"?

Yes, she probably rejects that.

Unlike mainstream members of the Church such as myself.

LOL, indeed!

Or that the Book of Mormon covered North America?

Yes, she probably rejects that.

Unlike mainstream members of the Church such as myself.

LOL, indeed!

Oops, that was you and the other FARMSboys.

Really? I would deny your claim, but, instead, I bow to your superior knowledge of my views and those of my friends. They must have confided in you what they've never confided in me. (I'm so jealous!)

Not confiding, just their published writings.

As evidence, I offer this picture of me contemplating a happy, affectionate family:

You've lost weight. My congratulations.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Honestly, giving a non-member, and an ex-member at that, a church DVD as a hostess gift is simply beyond my comprehension. I cannot imagine a more inopportune gift. A gift for the host/hostess is usually something that they would like, not something the guest thinks they need.

Any gift I take as a thank you (which a hostess gift is) would likely be something from my home state that I think the hostess might not normally buy or even know exists... like dried salmon or chocolate covered dried fruit or a nice vinegar from one of our wineries... certainly not a church DVD.

Good grief. Daniel, you are so lame sometimes. Next time, ask someone who isn't a BYU professor/apologist what kind of hostess gifts to take. Your host/hostesses will really appreciate it.

Ray A is interested in things dealing with Mormonism. He spends time (a considerable amount of time) blogging and discussing Mormonism. I think the gift was very appropriate regardless of Ray A's current faith stance.