An Interesting Encounter With A Young Lady.

[_Ray A]

I have encountered this modus operandi so many times throughout my life that it's obvious when it rears its ugly and deceitful head. It's a typical Christian "hook" story that captures the attention of a gullible "Believer" and brings them into the fold. People who are "skeptical" are automatically dismissed as being 'hard-headed' or whatnot in an effort to maintain the illusion.

Don't be deceived by this nonsense.

Well it's funny how many judgements are being made of the young lady when I'm the only one who actually met her. As I mentioned in my OP there was not even so much as a hint of her wanting to "proselyte" or convert me. I didn't tell her my name, she didn't tell me hers, the conversation lasted about 15 minutes (at my expense), she didn't preach about Jesus or Christianity in any way, only explained her experience, which actually came about because I mentioned the current epidemic of drugs, crime and lawlessness I see as a night-shift cab driver, didn't ask me to Church, didn't ask me what I believed, didn't suggest that I or anyone else needed this experience, or needed to be saved, didn't mention that "only Jesus saves", in fact didn't mention Jesus at all, only her belief in God, didn't tell me how great her church was, how great her pastor was, didn't suggest that others were heading to "damnation".

In fact, it was about 180 degrees different than something you'd expect from "born-agains", Mormon missionaries, Jehovah's Witnesses, or stage-weeping Evangelists asking for donations. We were, literally, like ships passing in the night, and while doing so exchanged some friendly signals, then sailed on perhaps never to see one another again.

AS, is this is your approach to life, to interpret such a benign encounter with such macabre connotations, then I fear you're suffering from an unhealthy and terminal cynicism. So I offer a non-religious antidote:

As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.

Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

>
>
>

[_Ray A]

What I find interesting about these accounts, is if there really is life after death, then what church is actually true really isn't all that big of concern to those in control of the NDE experiences. I don't know if I've ever read one where the "true" church idea is disclosed or even important. They usually focus on the life review and the true reality of one's experiences from a different perspective. It tells me that if there is life after death, how we behave, how we treat other people, the love we spread around, etc, those are the things that matter.

And over and over and over, ad infinitum, this is what the overwhelming majority of such accounts suggest.

[_harmony]

As far as possible, without surrender,
be on good terms with all persons.
Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even to the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story.
Avoid loud and aggressive persons;
they are vexatious to the spirit.

Exercise caution in your business affairs,
for the world is full of trickery.
But let this not blind you to what virtue there is;
many persons strive for high ideals,
and everywhere life is full of heroism.

Therefore be at peace with God,
whatever you conceive Him to be.
And whatever your labors and aspirations,
in the noisy confusion of life,
keep peace in your soul.

With all its sham, drudgery, and broken dreams,
it is still a beautiful world.
Be cheerful. Strive to be happy.

>
>
>

I have a framed copy of the whole Desiderata hanging on my cubicle wall. Some days, it makes it so I think twice before putting my office manager through the shredder.

[_marg]

Well it's funny how many judgements are being made of the young lady when I'm the only one who actually met her.

AS, is this is your approach to life, to interpret such a benign encounter with such macabre connotations, then I fear you're suffering from an unhealthy and terminal cynicism.

Geez Ray you ask for people's opinions and then attack them when they don't fall in line with yours. Don't bother asking if you aren't interested.

We antishock and I are going by the story you told us. As a non religious individual I know that concepts like "hell" and "God" are not relevant to my life. The story that you relate in my opinion comes from a believer because to a believer those concepts are important and relevant. To talk about one's nightmares as if it would be what hell would be like, is not how an atheist would think. A believer would talk like that, because they already have "hell" conceptually in their mind and think it relevant to one's life.

[_Ray A]

Geez Ray you ask for people's opinions and then attack them when they don't fall in line with yours. Don't bother asking if you aren't interested.

I didn't expect anyone to call her a "liar", especially someone who never encountered her. So I'm offering my alternate opinion that she was anything but a liar. I didn't expect her character to be torn to shreds, but I was really asking posters opinions of experiences like this, and the NDE phenomenon in general. I didn't ask, as far as I know, for a mind-reading of the young lady's motives, but in any case I was replying to those opinions. How anyone can so clearly and precisely read another's motives through cyber-space has, I have to say, got me a bit baffled. So I had to clarify to AS8 what I already did in my OP, that I got no sense whatsover that she shared her experience to "win me over". But of course, I suppose he would know better, because all such situations and experiences have a standard explanation - and AS knows them all. They are all, to the last one - BS.

We antishock and I are going by the story you told us. As a non religious individual I know that concepts like "hell" and "God" are not relevant to my life. The story that you relate in my opinion comes from a believer because to a believer those concepts are important and relevant. To talk about one's nightmares as if it would be what hell would be like, is not how an atheist would think. A believer would talk like that, because they already have "hell" conceptually in their mind and think it relevant to one's life.

Whether or not she was a Dinky-di, bred-from-birth Hitchens true atheist™ isn't really the point here, marg. It appears that a true atheist™ can never have an experience like Storm's or - they would never have been true atheist™ in the first place. I don't see how this addresses the phenomenon itself. But it seems to be that to fully understand the whole range of human experience, the first qualification to do so is - atheism™.

[_marg]

I didn't expect anyone to call her a "liar", especially someone who never encountered her. So I'm offering my alternate opinion that she was anything but a liar. I didn't expect her character to be torn to shreds, but I was really asking posters opinions of experiences like this, and the NDE phenomenon in general. I didn't ask, as far as I know, for a mind-reading of the young lady's motives, but in any case I was replying to those opinions. How anyone can so clearly and precisely read another's motives through cyber-space has, I have to say, got me a bit baffled. So I had to clarify to AS8 what I already did in my OP, that I got no sense whatsover that she shared her experience to "win me over". But of course, I suppose he would know better, because all such situations and experiences have a standard explanation - and AS knows them all. They are all, to the last one - BS.

You asked for people's opinions.."So what do you make of all this? Fact? Fantasy? A deluded mind under duress?" That you can not accept an interpretation that she was lying..reflects your opinion, not mine, not antishock. Now that I realize when you ask for opinions you only want those you find acceptable, I'll keep that in mind and not respond.

We antishock and I are going by the story you told us. As a non religious individual I know that concepts like "hell" and "God" are not relevant to my life. The story that you relate in my opinion comes from a believer because to a believer those concepts are important and relevant. To talk about one's nightmares as if it would be what hell would be like, is not how an atheist would think. A believer would talk like that, because they already have "hell" conceptually in their mind and think it relevant to one's life.

Whether or not she was a Dinky-di, bred-from-birth Hitchens true atheist™ isn't really the point here, marg. It appears that a true atheist™ can never have an experience like Storm's or - they would never have been true atheist™ in the first place. I don't see how this addresses the phenomenon itself. But it seems to be that to fully understand the whole range of human experience, the first qualification to do so is - atheism™.

It's obvious Ray that you buy into Storm's experience. So Ray how was he able to look back miles and miles away, because he physically walked away...and see his body through the fog?

[_Black Moclips]

Perhaps a better word to use would be "creative". I can find imaginative stories which are obviously meant to be fantasy ..very uncreative. Throwing in some flying purple unicorns into a story would be uncreative. Dying and remaining in the same physical body but separate to the body lying on a bed is in my opinion not creative.

And by the way, what do you think of the notion that he was in a physical body, with all the same sensations and abilities like walking as when alive. Walked miles and miles away from the body, had fog all around him which he obviously could see (based on the story yet was able to look back and see his body? Did the fog lift, if so what else did he see when it did, where did it go, did it come back? Anyhow I really shouldn't be discussing this story, as it doesn't interest me, it's just nonsense meant to sell to believers because that's the sort of story that appeals to them.

I guess my take is that in an experience like this, I don't have a standard by which to judge the details of what happened to him. I don't think we can take the story and say "Well because it wasn't creative or because something didn't make sense or something wasn't logical in my mind, therefore, that tells me the story is made up and isn't true." Since this all happened either 1) in his head, or 2) in the afterlife, and since none of us really knows what either is like, using the details to judge the story seems silly. We can't say the story should or shouldn't have been like this or that.

I don't think this guy changed his whole life on whim, going from Atheist to Christian in a very short period of time. There is no evidence that his account of his pre-NDE life was made up or that he made up this story just to convince non-believers. If it all originated in his mind as he clinically died, isn't that something to think about? His mind, independent of its normal wants, desires, attitudes, and behaviors, conjures up this incredible vision or dream in the dying moments of life, and it was so profound that it completely changed him. Why would the mind do that? I think that is an interesting question. Then of course there is the possibility that he really did live in the afterlife, also a very interesting question. And as you point out, he could be conning everyone for his own purposes. But I don't see that here. If he had been an evangelizing christian who conveniently had an NDE telling him to go preach and join his church, then I may be inclined to agree with you. But it seems this guy did real 180 for some reason. What would it take for you?

[_marg]

What would it take for you?

What would it take for me to believe an extraordinary story? A story that seemed truly credible and it would help if I had a degree of respect for the story teller, due to information I had about them.

In both of Ray's examples I found neither story credible. I do not believe the girl was ever atheist. I doubt she truly comprehends how an atheist thinks. And I believe Storm fabricated his story.

[_Ray A]

You asked for people's opinions.."So what do you make of all this? Fact? Fantasy? A deluded mind under duress?" That you can not accept an interpretation that she was lying..reflects your opinion, not mine, not antishock. Now that I realize when you ask for opinions you only want those you find acceptable, I'll keep that in mind and not respond.

Sure, was her experience fact, fantasy, a deluded mind under duress? As harmony has already pointed out, none of this indicates that she's a "liar", but relating what she sincerely believed, and what she experienced. But both you and AS8 come out and say, "liar, liar....". That's what baffles me.

We antishock and I are going by the story you told us. As a non religious individual I know that concepts like "hell" and "God" are not relevant to my life. The story that you relate in my opinion comes from a believer because to a believer those concepts are important and relevant. To talk about one's nightmares as if it would be what hell would be like, is not how an atheist would think. A believer would talk like that, because they already have "hell" conceptually in their mind and think it relevant to one's life.

That still doesn't sufficiently explain the phenomenon itself. And the "explanations" proffered remind me of what lifelong atheist Phillip Adams said after resigning as patron of the Atheist Society of Australia, which I'm reposting in part:

Incidentally, if there's one thing more infuriating than a silly theologian it's an arid, doctrinaire atheist. I've had dealings with plenty of them over the years, including a famous monster from the US. To profess atheism is not to prove anything, let alone intellectual merit. Some of the narrowest, most dogmatic and silly people I've known have been atheists - or have loudly professed themselves Humanists or Rationalists.

Let the last contribution of your erstwhile patron be to warn you against intellectual arrogance. I've never believed, for a moment, that atheists have all the answers. Just that they pose better questions.

Cheers,

Phillip Adams

Phillip Adams, who should now be fully scrutinised for experts to determine whether he's a "true atheist".

It's obvious Ray that you buy into Storm's experience. So Ray how as he able to look back miles and miles away, because he physically walked away...and see his body through the fog?

I find many elements of Storm's experience to have a clear link to other NDEs, which I've studied and continue to study as a phenomenon which still has no definite scientific explanation. I would prefer some intelligent counter-explanations, not the dogma to which Phillip refers.

[_Ray A]

And I believe Storm fabricated his story.

How would you know, marg, when you said you didn't even read it all? What have you read about Storm, apart from what I posted here? You obviously haven't met Storm, either, and neither have I, so by what iron-clad measure do we determine that he made it all up? "It just sounds fake?" He was never really atheist, and for 20-22 years he was just cranky, intolerable, selfish and difficult to live with, then one day he suddenly has a light-bulb flash - "I could make money out of this - and I'll become a really, really good guy and put on an act of weeping and talking about Jesus and meeting a Being of Light, even though I really hate these things. But I do remember a few things from Sunday School when I was a kid."

Makes perfect sense now.