Chapel vs Internet Mo -- Meldrumites vs FARMites?

[_Pokatator]

Out of a manual?

I was taught this verbatim, circa 1965. I would assume that they taught out of a manual, but you know what assuming can do.

I know lots of Mormons, related to most of them, they believe the same thing.

I know a few.

I haven't met but about two members outside of the internet that even know what LGT is and they are associated with the university here.

But I know many who place the Book of Mormon lands in Central America and accept the notion of two Cumorah's

You can argue doctrine and not doctrine all you want but the church I know and the majority of the people in it that I know treats this as fact, In other words as truth.

But since such does not the truth make, it doesn't matter.




BC, Maybe your circle of Mormon friends are different. Maybe they go to all the seminars and buy the latest books and stay up on all the current events.....but the majority of the Mormons I know don't.

I live today in the same ward boundary that I did when I was active as a child and for as long as I did as an adult. My parents still go to same building. I know these people and live with and by them and have since I was 7 years old and that was well over 50 years ago.

These people struggle to do their home teaching, even to get to church, the are busy in life's struggles just like everyone else. You asked if they read the ensign, I would say most do not. I have tried to have conversations with them on these type of matters and really the majority are clueless and they don't care to know anymore than they have to. They know the standard responses and how to close their ears and bear their testimony. End of dialogue with them.

So maybe your crowd is different. Perhaps there are some younger minds that I am missing but most of them serve their mission and then they move away but they seem just as uninformed as all the others at least on the surface.

My guess is that Meldrum would be considered a hero to most of these folks and if they could say it, they would say WTF is FARMS?

[_cinepro]

One fatal flaw. Is there anything doctrinal to the purported Joseph Smith's belief in the Book of Mormon location? If not, then prefixing this belief with Joseph Smith's stanmp of approval is meaningless.

Based on your criteria, it could probably be argued that there is nothing doctrinal showing Joseph Smith believed in the Book of Mormon at all.

[_bcspace]

Out of a manual?

I was taught this verbatim, circa 1965. I would assume that they taught out of a manual, but you know what assuming can do.

Ass-U-Me?

BC, Maybe your circle of Mormon friends are different. Maybe they go to all the seminars and buy the latest books and stay up on all the current events.....but the majority of the Mormons I know don't.

I live today in the same ward boundary that I did when I was active as a child and for as long as I did as an adult.

I am fairly old myself and my circle of LDS friends extends across the US in many states including California, Utah and Texas. This is why I give you guys a hard time. Almost nothing you say describes the Church I go to.

My guess is that Meldrum would be considered a hero to most of these folks and if they could say it, they would say WTF is FARMS?

Certainly not in the nonexistent "chapel" Mormon sense. I have no idea how old he is, but he represents how the older generation typically interprets the missing details.

[_EAllusion]

Meldrum and FARMS/MI are like two "non-overlapping magisteria" a la Gould - the one is for those in the church who want to believe in science, archeology, etc. and still believe in the church, and the other is for those who don't want to believe in science, archeology, etc. and still believe in the church.

I think this is oversimplified to the point where it is not correct. One the one hand, both groups exist on the fringe of mainstream science and engage in sketchy scientific arguments or hold sketchy ideas about science. The real difference is that FARMS-style arguments tend to be more accommodating to mainstream scientific knowledge. They concede more. They're more liberal, if you will. On the other hand, both groups care - at least superficially so - very much about Church doctrine being in harmony with scientific thought. They both are trying to show how it is.

Really, what you are looking at is quite analogous to the difference between young earth creationists and old earth creationists. Meldrum and friends are Answers in Genesis and FARMS and company are the Discovery Institute. One is more liberal and accepting of mainstream science than the other, but both engage in dubious reasoning, both exist at the fringe of scientific thought, and both care about having the force of scientific argument on their side, or at least the appearance of it. At the end of the day, both are still fundamentalists.

And remember, people who make Meldrum type arguments are welcomed within the apologetic institutions ya'll describe as "Internet Mormonism." They're in a minority and their views aren't as well thought well of by their apologist comrades in that environment, but they're part of the big tent. Remember David Stewart?

[_Dr. Shades]

Almost nothing you say describes the Church I go to. . . Certainly not in the nonexistent "chapel" Mormon sense.

One of the fundamental tenets of the Internet Mormon/Chapel Mormon observation is that each group denies the existence of the other.

[_LifeOnaPlate]

Almost nothing you say describes the Church I go to. . . Certainly not in the nonexistent "chapel" Mormon sense.

One of the fundamental tenets of the Internet Mormon/Chapel Mormon observation is that each group denies the existence of the other.

I hear tell that Pixies and Leperachauns feel the same way. ;)

[_cinepro]

One of the fundamental tenets of the Internet Mormon/Chapel Mormon observation is that each group denies the existence of the other.

I just visited Meldrum's website for the first time, and all I can say is "wow". Not only is he strongly anti LGT, he is also anti-evolution. Here are two books on his site:

THIS LAND: ONLY ONE CUMORAH, BOOK

CREATION AND EVOLUTION; A WITNESS OF PROPHETS, DVD DOCUMENTARY

It's almost surreal how he has set himself up as the Galileo of Book of Mormon geography, with FARMS and FAIR as the entrenched, misguided power structure trying to snuff out his truth.

[_harmony]

My guess is that Meldrum would be considered a hero to most of these folks and if they could say it, they would say WTF is FARMS?

I live in the Spud's kind of ward. The thinking in my stake is the same. The thinking in all the neighboring stakes (about 10) is also the same. We could pick up the people in Pokie's ward and transplant them to my ward, and not only would a significant number of them know each other and likely be related to each other, even though we are hundreds of miles apart, but they would virtually entirely mesh with each other philosophically. This is not strange. These people are the salt of the earth. They have a simple faith and it serves them well. They don't take kindly to ideas that rock that faith and they either become passive aggressive (sleeping, ignoring, in one ear and out the other without ever stopping to rest in between) in the face of those rocky ideas or they come out fighting while wearing ear protection. They do not want to hear or read anything that would rock their faith.

We have a woman in my ward that is a true Meldrumite. She is the SP's wife and a real piece of work as far as her personality is concerned. She will shut down (very politely, of course) any discussion in Sunday School that does not proceed to her liking. There will be no liberal Mormons in our ward if she can prevent it. I've seen her do it time and again, and the resentment in the air is palpable, but no one will cross her. And since I don't care one way or the other, the whole thing just amuses me.

But the Spud is right about my area of Outer Zion.

[_EAllusion]

I just visited Meldrum's website for the first time, and all I can say is "wow". Not only is he strongly anti LGT, he is also anti-evolution. Here are two books on his site:

THIS LAND: ONLY ONE CUMORAH, BOOK

CREATION AND EVOLUTION; A WITNESS OF PROPHETS, DVD DOCUMENTARY

It's almost surreal how he has set himself up as the Galileo of Book of Mormon geography, with FARMS and FAIR as the entrenched, misguided power structure trying to snuff out his truth.

It bears repeating that things like these demonstrate the care Meldrum type thinkers do have for scientific evidence - or at least the cultural cache science has. The whole point is to show how scientific evidence supports his more literalist interpretation of Church theology. If pressed, just like FARMSites, he'll almost certainly say that where science and Church doctrine conflict, there's something wrong with the science. But happily for him, he thinks the evidence strongly point to the hemispheric model of the Book of Mormon being historically accurate. The difference between him and someone who thinks the Book of Mormon is ancient, but buys enough mainstream archeology to adopt an apologetic view like the LGT, is not that they care about science where Meldrum does not. The difference is more like the difference between someone who offers apologetic "evidences" that a global Noahic flood literally happened vs. someone who offers a case that a limited Noahic flood literally happened.

[_Droopy]

Regardless of the manner in which this is ultimately resolved, Meldrum has anointed himself Prophet, Seer, and Revelator of the Church on this issue (and, by implication, others as well) and is hence in conflict with every principle of Priesthood government and order.

The very fact that Meldrum believes that, in pinpointing the Book of Mormon geography he can then prove to the world the truth of the Church and that this would somehow force much of the earth's population to convert out of the sheer weight of logical or self evident arguments to the point indicates a certain unhingedness on his part that I'm quite uncomfortable with, not to mention that Meldrum seems deeply confused regarding some fundamental Gospel teachings.