hobart wrote:I have the horrible worry that most if not many people who voted really didn't have that much of a stake in it at all--and so popular democracy and opinions are allowed to screw venerable minorities from getting full protection or consideration.
I have heard people complain that anti-prop 8ers are "throwing temper tantrums" like little children because they "didn't get their way." But let's think about this: wouldn't the other side complain too? Yes, but I don't think they'd complain very long. After all, how often (and please think seriously and slowly about this one) does your average Mormon actually get affected in any way with homosexuality? Not very often if at all.
The reality is that the Christan right believes that God is protecting our country and that we are a blessed land. If we as a nation were to allow this debauchery to take place, God would turn His back on us and we would fall. I have heard more than one Mormon make this claim.
Therefore, the Christans DO believe they have a stake in this.
And, I do believe the anti-Prop 8ers are throwing temper tantrums. I can't think of a better way to describe what many of them are doing. Protests blocking freeways to the Mormon temples, firing Mormons just because they are Mormon, Mormon physical abuse, etc. How else would you categorize these actions?
If there's one thing I've learned from this board, it's that consensual sex with multiple partners is okay unless God commands it. - Abman
I find this place to be hostile toward all brands of stupidity. That's why I like it. - Some Schmo
hobart wrote:I have the horrible worry that most if not many people who voted really didn't have that much of a stake in it at all--and so popular democracy and opinions are allowed to screw venerable minorities from getting full protection or consideration.
I have heard people complain that anti-prop 8ers are "throwing temper tantrums" like little children because they "didn't get their way." But let's think about this: wouldn't the other side complain too? Yes, but I don't think they'd complain very long. After all, how often (and please think seriously and slowly about this one) does your average Mormon actually get affected in any way with homosexuality? Not very often if at all.
And, I do believe the anti-Prop 8ers are throwing temper tantrums. I can't think of a better way to describe what many of them are doing. Protests blocking freeways to the Mormon temples, firing Mormons just because they are Mormon, Mormon physical abuse, etc. How else would you categorize these actions?
Okay, I do admit you are right that some people are going WAY too far--and I don't approve of illegal or terrorist actions on behalf of the anti-Prop 8ers, but I don't think what we see in the extreme cases should be applied to all who are for gay marriage.
In terms of US public opinion, the LDS Church's position is aptly described as middle of the road. In terms of world opinion, it also is middle of the road. In terms of western democracies, it's fairly extremist, right wing. I guess it's a matter of perspective.
DCP -
Who here was suggesting that it's wrong to organize politically in favor of a viewpoint? Of course, it's wrong to organize in favor of wrong viewpoints, but that borders on a truism and not what your sarcasm was aiming at.
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It's only a matter of time before gay marriage has legal acceptance. Through virtually all demographics, the younger the voter, the more acceptance there is. If those over 65 weren't voting, it already would be accepted in more states than it is, including California. That's not a matter of wisdom. It's old prejudices dying off. Things have come a long way in a short period of time already. It's easy to forget that it was only a few years ago, less than a generation, when it was socially acceptable to openly equate homosexuals, male ones especially, with pedophiles and speculate that homosexuality is often caused by nefarious gay recruitment and rape of children.
_________________ Two intelligent species live on Earth: Humans and Hungarians. - Isaac Asimov
Martians? They are among us, but they call themselves Hungarians.
Edward Teller became especially happy of his E.T. initials, but he complained about indiscretion.
To be a Hungarian is not enough - but it may help.
According to myth, at a top secret meeting of the Manhattan Project General Groves left for the gents' room. Leo Szilard then said: - Perhaps we may now continue in Hungarian!
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
Although President-elect Obama did include gays in his mention of the various groups who supported him, HBO not only blacked out Bishop Gene Robinson's invocation at today's inauguration concert, they didn't introduce the Washington DC Gay Men's Chorus when they performed, nor did they identify them onscreen.
- Whenever a poet or preacher, chief or wizard spouts gibberish, the human race spends centuries deciphering the message. - Umberto Eco - To assert that the earth revolves around the sun is as erroneous as to claim that Jesus was not born of a virgin. - Cardinal Bellarmine at the trial of Galilei
The Nehor wrote:I suspect Prop 8 passed because Obama's candidacy got minorities to the ballot box.
Explain this statement.
Hello,
Within Los Angeles County, California, While President Barack Obama won over Senator John McCain by over 40 Percentage Points, Proposition 8 still managed to Win barely Los Angeles County, California.
Barack Obama and John McCain Results, Within Los Angeles County, California:
Prop8 opponents got caught flatfooted, that is all there's to it!
No they didn't.
They raised more money. They had plenty of fundraising activities. They had a much higher profile. They had plenty of actors and politicians who went on record and on TV to support their position. Not a single actor or politician went on the record for Pro-Prop 8. They distributed thousands of signs at the grassroots level. They had street rallies against Prop 8 when no other Proposition in the state had any rallies.
When they lost, they claimed they were caught flatfooted. I'd like to know how it is they were caught flat footed.
So much of the analysis is subjective, but I thought their television ads, which were many more in frequency than the pro-Prop 8 side, were deceptively vague. The ads did not mention gays or homosexuals, and featured only heterosexuals. If they were trying to confuse the issue, they did a good job but it hurt them.
Cue the soft spoken brownshirts who spoke of organized resistance. Cue the silent collective racism and intimidation of Jim Crow.
I don't think lightly of community organizers. I think its powerful, just like atomic weapons.
And crawling on the planet's face Some insects called the human race Lost in time And lost in space...and meaning