Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

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_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Re:

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

John Larsen wrote:I find it strange that the training of prophets includes the methods of charlatans and conjurers rather than the serious devotion required in most trades. I guess that says something about the nature of prophets.

I find it strange that you should think that prophets would be trained in the manner that a craftsman learns a trade.

The ancient Didache doesn't agree with you, and I don't either.
_cinepro
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _cinepro »

Daniel Peterson wrote:I didn't originate it and I'm not particularly committed to it, but, linguistically and anthropologically, it seems to me relatively plausible. Parallel phenomena occur all the time (e.g., "Lucanian cow," "prairie dog," "sea horse," "buffalo," "turkey," "river horse," etc., etc.), and most of the cackling that I encounter among some critics on this point tells me more about their naïveté than about the "tapir hypothesis."
.


As far as I can tell, the "tapir hypothesis" has one critical flaw.

If Nephi saw a tapir (or animal he was unfamiliar with) and gave it a name in his language that meant "horse" (let's say "sus"), then at some point, the word Nephi used ("sus") comes to explain the new animal, not the old-world "horse". So a translation of these writings would properly translate "sus" to "tapir", not "horse".

Assuming the plates were kept in a different language than that spoken by the masses, then it would only be a generation or two until Nephi's "sus" was understood to be a tapir.

Thus, the problem isn't that Nephi identified an animal as a "horse" shortly after landfall. The problem is that 500 years later in Alma 18, the record keeper wouldn't be referring to a "horse"; he wouldn't even know what a horse is.

So then we must look at the method of translation, and ask ourselves how is it that the person or entity translating from the language of the plates to English felt that it was proper to take the word in Alma 18 ("sus") and render it as "horse", instead of the animal that was intended by the author, and which was correctly being referred to. Whether it was done by God, the Holy Ghost, Moroni, or another angel or spirit fluent in both Reformed Egyptian and English, the "translator" would know in their knowledge of Reformed Egyptian that "sus" means "tapir".

The Tapir Hypothesis might have a shred of plausibility if the Book of Mormon were originally written in English, and "horse" were maintained through the centuries as a misnomer for "tapir". But once we introduce an intermediary language with an intelligent (and dare I say, omniscent?) translator, then it becomes a serious, illogical gaffe to suggest Nephi's word still meant "horse" over 5 centuries later.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

cinepro wrote:As far as I can tell, the "tapir hypothesis" has one critical flaw.

If Nephi saw a tapir (or animal he was unfamiliar with) and gave it a name in his language that meant "horse" (let's say "sus"), then at some point, the word Nephi used ("sus") comes to explain the new animal, not the old-world "horse".

I don't believe it necessarily entails that at all.

Which means that the rest of your note doesn't follow.
_cinepro
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _cinepro »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
cinepro wrote:As far as I can tell, the "tapir hypothesis" has one critical flaw.

If Nephi saw a tapir (or animal he was unfamiliar with) and gave it a name in his language that meant "horse" (let's say "sus"), then at some point, the word Nephi used ("sus") comes to explain the new animal, not the old-world "horse".

I don't believe it necessarily entails that at all.

Which means that the rest of your note doesn't follow.


Really? Suppose you knew, without a doubt, that the word "horse" in the Book of Mormon referred to a tapir (just as the original translator must have). The Church asks you to assist in preparing a new edition of the Book of Mormon using more modern English (just as other languages have received different, clarified translations).

Would you suggest that the word "horse" be corrected to refer to the proper animal, or would you suggest that it be maintained as the incorrect "horse" for some other reason?

Or, if that hypothetical doesn't work for you, how about this:

You are tasked with translating some ancient records of a Dutch settlement on an island. You know that upon landfall, the explorers encountered an elephant, and called it their word for cow ("koe"). You know there were no "cows" on the island, and visits with the descendants of these settlers has shown you how they call elephants "koes". As you translate the 1,000 year history of the settlement, you find several instances of them mentioning "koes" and killing them for their ivory, their immense size, and their long noses. As you translate the record into English, do you translate "koe" into "cow", or "elephant"?
Last edited by Guest on Wed Jan 28, 2009 10:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

cinepro wrote:Really?

Really.

If, ex hypothesi, the semantic domain of the Nephite equivalent for horse (perhaps sus) included tapirs, that wouldn't necessarily be wrong nor an error to be corrected. It's just a different classificatory schema.

cinepro wrote:Suppose you knew, without a doubt, that the word "horse" in the Book of Mormon referred to a tapir (just as the original translator must have).

He must have?

cinepro wrote:The Church asks you to assist in preparing a new edition of the Book of Mormon using more modern English (just as other languages have received different, clarified translations).

Would you suggest that the word "horse" be corrected to refer to the proper animal, or would you suggest that it be maintained as the incorrect "horse" for some other reason?

I would suggest it as a possibility. I wouldn't necessarily insist on it. I could argue either way.
_cinepro
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _cinepro »

Daniel Peterson wrote:He must have?


Can you propose a scenario where the entity performing the tight translation from Reformed Egyptian to English wouldn't know that the Reformed Egyptian word that Nephi, Alma, and Mormon used referred to a North American mammal known in English as a "tapir"?

(And just in case it's relevant, it looks like the word "tapir" predates 1829)
_Scottie
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Scottie »

Not to mention the problems of tight translations for cumoms and cureloms.

If Joseph Smith had no idea what a "tapir" was, he sure as hell didn't know what a cumom or a curelom was. Yet, he was able to translate these into their proper names.
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_Inconceivable
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Inconceivable »

Daniel Peterson wrote:
cinepro wrote:As far as I can tell, the "tapir hypothesis" has one critical flaw.

If Nephi saw a tapir (or animal he was unfamiliar with) and gave it a name in his language that meant "horse" (let's say "sus"), then at some point, the word Nephi used ("sus") comes to explain the new animal, not the old-world "horse".

I don't believe it necessarily entails that at all.

Which means that the rest of your note doesn't follow.


25 And it came to pass that we did find upon the land of promise, as we journeyed in the wilderness, that there were beasts in the forests of every kind, both the cow and the ox, and the ass and the horse, and the goat and the wild goat, and all manner of wild animals, which were for the use of men. And we did find all manner of ore, both of gold, and of silver, and of copper.

(Book of Mormon | 1 Nephi 18:25)


So if the lowly stock horse is realy the majestic tapir, what in the hell is an ass? A dinner pig with long ears?
_Daniel Peterson
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _Daniel Peterson »

cinepro wrote:Can you propose a scenario where the entity performing the tight translation from Reformed Egyptian to English wouldn't know that the Reformed Egyptian word that Nephi, Alma, and Mormon used referred to a North American mammal known in English as a "tapir"?

Irrelevant.

If the word on the plates was sus or some Nephite equivalent thereof, horse is a perfectly accurate translation.
_asbestosman
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Re: Taught hat-looking and seer stones today. So......?

Post by _asbestosman »

What would be the appropriate way to translate the word "gay" into Dutch, I wonder? Gelukkig or homosexueel? Are they both acceptable, or does it depend on the author's intent?

I'm not saying that the horse / tapir theory is wrong, but I really don't understand what's going on given the question I have above. I believe the correct answer to my question is there is only one correct answer, but which one is correct depends on the auther's usage / intent. Why, then that doesn't apply to horses and tapirs is a mystery to me, but then the only languages I speak are English and Dutch.
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