LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

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_beastie
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _beastie »

I know this doesn't have much to do with MAD either (and I'll look more into this on Wednesday when I have more time), but an added question I have is: How many GAs believe the LGT?


I don't think there's any way to tell, but I would suspect that LGT had something to do with the change in the Book of Mormon introduction, which would mean that someone influential adheres to LGT and was able to convince the others the change was needed.
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_Gadianton
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _Gadianton »

Hi Beastie,

Nice to hear from you. Funny story about Zak. Things must not have changed much.

MAD has a mix of Chapel/Internet Mormons on it now from what I remember. But you are right, that there is a large degree of failure. In particular, the FIRM foundation will be making it even harder for the apologists to sell their heretical ideas.
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_EAllusion
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _EAllusion »

Their heavy-handed moderation policies seems to have promoted an environment where more "traditional" believers are out and about. I also think what the Dude said is right. All manner of apologists come up with defenses for narrow topics that don't necessarily jive with other theories they also are supposed to be holding on other topics. Naturally, some inconsistency is expected in what people think, but I think we are all familiar with the arguments of convenience here. With more - shall we say - less gifted posters, you're more likely to see people all over the map. Apparently this is true both literally and figuratively.

As far as the LGT divide goes, I think you are looking at an issue that parallels the old earth/young earth divide among fundamentalist evangelicals so well it is instructive.
_krose
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _krose »

There has been an influx of fairly strident believers over there recently. If you've spent much time there you know which posters I mean.

They are not very pleasant to deal with because they have little to offer other than strongly held traditional opinions with little foundation, coupled with a willingness to insult. Tarski has been a favorite target of theirs lately.
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_beastie
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _beastie »

MAD has a mix of Chapel/Internet Mormons on it now from what I remember. But you are right, that there is a large degree of failure. In particular, the FIRM foundation will be making it even harder for the apologists to sell their heretical ideas.


I think part of the problem may be that even the LGT in Mesoamerica requires some “creative thinking”, shall we say, so it may be difficult for traditional believers to see the end benefit. Apologists who are a bit more schooled may understand the importance of some subtleties, such as population density, that the run-of-mill believer may not appreciate. So yeah, in the end, it’s probably hard for a traditional believer to see the end benefit of switching to a theory that seems to contradict the teachings of past prophets.

Their heavy-handed moderation policies seems to have promoted an environment where more "traditional" believers are out and about. I also think what the Dude said is right. All manner of apologists come up with defenses for narrow topics that don't necessarily jive with other theories they also are supposed to be holding on other topics. Naturally, some inconsistency is expected in what people think, but I think we are all familiar with the arguments of convenience here. With more - shall we say - less gifted posters, you're more likely to see people all over the map. Apparently this is true both literally and figuratively.

As far as the LGT divide goes, I think you are looking at an issue that parallels the old earth/young earth divide among fundamentalist evangelicals so well it is instructive.


Yes, I think that’s probably an accurate observation, although I do wonder what happened to some of the more vocal defenders of the faith of yore. It is an interesting divide, and kind of fun to watch. I like seeing “internet Mormons” shudder when a chapel Mormon comes right out and says something that critics have asserted all along, like this statement from the thread (by sevenbak):

In response to this comment of mine:
I argue from the basis of LGT within Mesoamerica because it's the only theory even worth debating.


Sevenbak said this:
That's pretty smug, considering there are definitely 2 camps of thought on this. Academia vs. The Brethren, in most cases.

I'll stick with the latter, thanks.


To which the more experienced defender of the faith, gtaggart, replied:

Geeze, please don't go there. The Brethren and the Church take no position on the location of Book of Mormon lands. There have been individuals among the Brethren who have, but there is no official position, and the positions vary among those Brethren who have taken one. So which one are you going to "stick" to? It's simplistic in the extreme to say that it's "Academia vs. The Brethren."


You gotta love it. I could just imagine gtaggart grimacing over the fact that sevenbak was affirming what critics have said all along.

There has been an influx of fairly strident believers over there recently. If you've spent much time there you know which posters I mean.

They are not very pleasant to deal with because they have little to offer other than strongly held traditional opinions with little foundation, coupled with a willingness to insult. Tarski has been a favorite target of theirs lately.


LOL. Then I’m in good company. I’ve already been told that I’m “upset”, and “biased”, and “flippant” and making “ridiculous” assertions. Yet I’m making simple statements that are Mesoamerican history 101.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_TAK
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _TAK »

beastie wrote:I don't have any doubt that the MI apologists are still hard at work to provide supporting evidence for LGT in Mesoamerica. And they may even, one day, be able to influence the GAs enough that the GAs will start making public statements that could be interpreted as supportive of LGT. I think it will take the GAs support before it begins to uproot the old ideas about the Book of Mormon.

But I am curious about the current make-up of MAD. It almost seems like the quasi-professional apologists have abandoned the place along with most critics.


Thinking long term - don't you imagine that LGT is just a short term solution to buy time to morph the Book of Mormon into a spiritual work rather than literal? I think this is why you see apoligist more interested in shooting down the Rigdon theories vs Smith alone. That avenue needs to stay open.
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_EAllusion
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _EAllusion »

I think apologists are more interested in responding to Rigdon theories, or more accurately have more enjoyable zeal when to they do so, simply because they see it as something that is easily attackable. It's fun and easy to argue, "See, in order to deny the divine origins of the Book of Mormon, critics must reach to implausible theories like this!" It sure beats spending too much time on their laughable positive case for the Book of Mormon. Those who thought aliens were responsible for crop circles loved to reply to the more wild ideas about their non-alien origins, such as bizarre weather patterns. Same principle.
_cinepro
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _cinepro »

The biggest problem for the LGT isn't what the introduction said, or what some GA's have said. No, the biggest problem is that the Book of Mormon itself clearly tells the story from a hemispherical/isolated perspective. That is the obvious reading (even if it is the wrong one).

The most obviously problematic passages are those that clearly state the promised land was "preserved", and "kept hidden", such as Ether 2:7-9 and 2 Nephi 1. Sure, there are really interesting arguments for "others" based on inferences and extrapolations, but when compared to the clear language of the book itself, such arguments can wear pretty thin.

Ultimately, apologetic arguments tend to be much more stretched and nuanced, and take a degree of mental effort to convince yourself that they are true. Until the apologists can get the wording in the Book of Mormon itself changed, or get some quasi-official statements on the books from General Authorities, they are fighting a losing battle.
_beastie
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _beastie »

Yes, I agree that the Book of Mormon itself is a big impediment to the acceptance of LGT.

I also agree that apologists would rather go on the aggressive and attack critics' theories rather than defend their own.

It's been very interesting to debate this on threads where Zak is the main defender of the faith. That says something...still trying to figure out what.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_bcspace
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Re: LGT apologists ----> FAIL?

Post by _bcspace »

Just read the thread, surely? Since she gave you a link, the knee-jerk CFR act seems singularly pointless.


Not at all. She obviously made a count, let's hear it.

When you have done that, you might try answering the question at the end of the OP:

I’m asking you: does it now appear that most believers on MAD reject LGT in Mesoamerica?

In other words, have the Meldrumites attained the upper hand?


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