Problems With Christianity

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_Jason Bourne
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Jason Bourne »

"Jason Bourne"
But why can't an omnipotent God just forgive? Why does he demand blood? Nobody seems able to answer this.




Why it had to be this way I don't know but when we forgive, we truly love our fellowman the way God loves us. Justice was served for our sins already, we are only commanded to forgive those who have hurt us and repent of our own sins. The gospel and atonement is very simple but much harder to do!

This is the only answer I have found some peace with.
Christ's Atonement satisfied the demands of justice.
Is it the law of heaven that requires it? Or, is it the justice that we are demanding of sins?


I see nothing in your comments that answers the question of why an omnipotent God cannot forgive without shedding someone's blood.


Let me give you an example:
I was talking with a Mormon friend who is having trouble forgiving a family member who abused her. She believes that Christ's atonement will miraculously heal her wounds and pain in the next life. She also feels satisfied with believing he will be judged and sent to a lower kingdom for eternity. She wants justice and believes this person could never receive the same glory of heaven as her but claims to have forgiven him. To her,repentance will only get him so far, and it better not ever get him near her. The person who committed the abuse, has suffered enormously for his sins, even to the point of suicide. He has repented but his life has been one of pain and misery for his actions. Christ knows the pain this person has been through as well as the victim, as He suffered it in the Garden. The justice was already served for his sins and hers. All we are commanded to do is repent and forgive each other. She is not sinless.



A story that shows someone who is struggling to follow the command of forgive to be forgiven. Still has nothing to do with my question.

We see this attitude from TBM's who hope apostates are sent to a lower kingdom and will not get the reward they will for being so called "faithful." It's not fair and they want justice! The prodigal son comes to mind.
\

I see this attitude in many human beings.

.
_Jason Bourne
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Jason Bourne »

I realize the difference but they still believe that God (however Jesus came) is the both the Father and the Son and the Holy Ghost. They are ONE GOD and not 2 separate Gods and a separate spirit man.


Traditional Christians believe three personages co -exist as one God. Yet somehow they believe that as a separte being God the son came to earth. It was not the Father. The Father was still in heaven. Jesus referred to His Father as greater than He was. I am not sure how they reconcile this but if you say it was God the Father they will declare it a heresy.


However God did it, He did it for us, and didn't send a separate God in his place. How do you get around these scriptures from the Book of Mormon?


No God the Father did not come and do it for us not even in traditional Christianity.

Alma 11:
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I AM Jesus Christ. I AM THE FATHER AND THE SON" (Ether 3:14).

"Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ THE LORD, WHO IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER. Amen" (Mosiah 16:15; see also 2Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 11:38,39; 3Nephi 11:27,36; Mormon 7:7).


I am not arguing whether the Mormon point or the traditional Christian point is correct. I am just correcting your incorrect presentation of the traditional Christian view. The Book of Mormon as you note above has a number of passages that present the traditional Christian view and even some that could be argued to present the heresy of modalism.

It doesn't seem to bother other Mormons, but for me it makes a world of difference to know that my Heavenly Father gave his life for me, instead of sending a different God, his "favorite son" from the pre existence.


Well that is your own doctrine. I am happy to be corrected but I do not think any Christian religion teaches it was heavenly Father that died for them.
_tomz165
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _tomz165 »

JoetheClerk wrote:The main problem is whether Jesus as an individual, son of God and Savior of mankind did actually exist or was a construction of many myths through the centuries rolled into one.

Is there anything concrete from the time he was supposed to have lived that is available? And no, the Bible is not evidence here.


You might want to review the following mentions of Christ outside the Bible from about his own time. I remember only some of these as we had to translate them in High School with the Jesuits in Latin class. They might be relevant to your question and some may not be.

Cornelius Tacitus - Governor of Asia

Cornelius Tacitus was a Roman historian and governor of Asia [Turkey] in A.D. 112. He was a personal friend of the historian Pliny the Younger. In his Annals, written after AD 64, he referred to Emperor Nero's persecution of the Christians. This attack was caused by Nero's false accusation that the Christians had burned the city of Rome. This monstrous lie was intended to cover the truth that the evil emperor himself had ordered the capital set on fire. Tacitus wrote:

To suppress therefore the common rumour, Nero procured others to be accused, and inflicted exquisite punishments upon those people, who were in abhorrence for their crimes, and were commonly known as Christians. They had their denomination from Christus [Christ], who in the reign of Tiberius was put to death as a criminal by the procurator Pontius Pilate. This pernicious superstition, though checked for a while, broke out again, and spread, not only over Judea, the source of this evil, but reached the city [Rome] also. (Annals of Imperial Rome, XV 44).

Tacitus, as a Roman government official and historian with access to the government archives of Rome, confirmed many of the historical details in the Gospels, as well as the books of Acts and Romans. He confirmed that Jesus was executed as a criminal under the authority of Pontius Pilate (who ruled Judea under the reign of Emperor Tiberius). He also declared that the Christians, who began in Judea and were now spreading throughout the empire, derived their worship and religion from the person known as Christ. He verified the explosive growth of this new religion within 32 years of Jesus' crucifixion despite the fact that its founder suffered the death penalty as a criminal. Additionally, Tacitus confirms that the Christians were despised, hated, and falsely accused of crimes, yet they rapidly grew to become a "vast multitude" in Rome itself (Annals XV 44). The reason Tacitus and many other Romans hated the Christians is because of the Christians refusal to worship the pagan gods, and Emperor Nero himself.

Suetonius - Roman Historian

Caius Suetonius was the official historian of Rome during the reign of both Emperor Trajan and Adrian. He was also a friend of Pliny the Younger, and was referred to in several of Pliny's letters. Suetonius wrote a book on the Lives of the First Twelve Caesars. In the section on the Emperor Claudius (who ruled from AD 41 to 54) Suetonius referred to the Christians causing disturbances in Rome which led to their being banished from the city. Suetonius wrote about Claudius: "He banished the Jews from Rome, who were continually making disturbances, Chrestus being their leader." He identified the sect of Jewish Christians as being derived from "the instigation of Chrestus" which was his curious spelling of the name Christ (Life of Claudius 25.4, written in A.D. 125). This statement provides powerful evidence that there were a significant number of Christians living in Rome before A.D. 54, only two decades after Jesus. This passage confirms the statement of Luke (in the Book of Acts) about the exiling of the Jews from Rome during the reign of Claudius. The Apostle Paul found, "a certain Jew named Aquila, born in Pontus, lately come from Italy, with his wife Priscilla; (because that Claudius had commanded all Jews to depart from Rome:) and came unto them" (Acts 18:2).

Suetonius also wrote about the persecution of Christians during the reign of Nero. "The Christians were punished; a sort of men of a new and magical superstition." His criticism of the early Church affirms that this was a "new" religion that had recently appeared (in confirmation of the Gospels and the book of Acts). Furthermore, his reference to "magical superstition" confirms that the Christians were known to produce miracles and healing. The new faith of Christianity was based on the resurrection of their Messiah Jesus of Nazareth which would certainly qualify as a "magical superstition" to a pagan Roman historian.

Pliny the Younger

Caius Plinius Secundus, known as Pliny the Younger, was born near Milan, Italy in A.D. 62. The historian Pliny, a close friend of Tacitus, served as a consul during the reign of emperor Trajan and was later appointed governor of the Roman provinces of Pontus and Bithynia [Turkey] in the period A.D. 101 to 110. He wrote to the emperor to request specific instructions about the interrogation of the Christians whom he was persecuting. In his Epistles X 96, he states that these Christian believers would not worship Emperor Trajan and would not curse their leader, Jesus Christ, even under extreme torture. Pliny wrote that the Christians were:

in the habit of meeting on a certain fixed day before it was light, when they sang in alternate verse a hymn to Christ as to a god, and bound themselves to a solemn oath, not to any wicked deeds, but never to commit any fraud, theft, adultery, never to falsify their word, not to deny a trust when they should be called upon to deliver it up.

Pliny described the Christians as people who loved the truth at any cost. It is difficult to believe that these people would willingly die for Jesus Christ if they knew and believed it was a lie. The martyrdom of thousands of these Christians was based on the fact that they knew the truth of the statements in the Gospels about Jesus and were willing to die as martyrs rather than deny their faith in Jesus as the Son of God.

Lucian of Samosata

Lucian lived in Samosata in Syria during the reign of Emperor Adrian in the century following Christ. In the later years of his life he served as a government official in Alexandria, Egypt. In Lucian's book, The Passing Peregrinus, he wrote the history of a well known Greek traveller named Proteus who was forced to flee his country after several crimes; he traveled the world under the name Peregrinus. He met some followers of Jesus in the early Church. Lucian wrote,

At which time he learned the wonderful doctrine of the Christians, by conversing with their priests and scribes near Palestine... they spoke of him as a god, and took him for a lawgiver, and honored him with the title of master... They still worship that great man who was crucified in Palestine, because he introduced into the world this new religion... Moreover their first lawgiver has taught them, that they are all brethren, when once they turned, and renounced the gods of the Greeks, and worship that master of theirs who was crucified, and engage to live according to his laws.

Lucian has provided an independent confirmation of numerous historical facts that are mentioned in the Gospels including: the crucifixion; that Jesus was considered a lawgiver; that Christ was worshipped as God; and that His followers committed to follow Christ's laws.

The Letter From Mara Bar-Serapion

A Syrian named Mara Bar-Serapion wrote a curious letter from prison during the first century. The letter was written to his son, Serapion, to encourage him to follow the example of various esteemed teachers of past ages. This letter is listed as Syriac Manuscript number 14,658 in the British Museum. His father reminded him:

What advantage did the Athenians gain from putting Socrates to death? Famine and plague came upon them as a judgment for their crime. What advantage did the men of Samos gain from burning Pythagoras? In a moment their land was covered with sand. What advantage did the Jews gain from executing their wise King? It was just after that that their kingdom was abolished. God justly avenged these three wise men: the Athenians died of hunger; the Samians were overwhelmed by the sea; the Jews, ruined and driven from their land, live in complete dispersion. But Socrates did not die for good; he lived on in the statue of Hera. Nor did the wise King die for good; he lived on in the teaching which he had given.

The historical value of this Mar Bar-Serapion letter is that it provides strong independent pagan corroboration that Jesus was considered to be the "King" of the Jews. This letter may refer to a Gospel statement about the written statement that was placed above the cross. "And set up over his head his accusation written, This is Jesus The King Of The Jews" (Matthew 27:37). The writer of the letter also states that Jesus was executed illegally by the Jews, who then suffered the judgments of God for their misdeeds in a possible reference to the well known tragic destruction of Judea and Jerusalem by the legions of Rome in A.D. 70. It is fascinating to note that the writer considered that Jesus was in some sense immortal because His teachings "lived on" after His death. In addition Mara Bar-Serapion refers to Jesus as "a wise and virtuous man." As a pagan Mara Bar-Serapion considered Jesus to be a great philosopher together with Socrates and Pythagoras.

Julius Africanus, Thallus, and Phlegon

A very early confirmation of the truth of the crucifixion of Jesus is found in the writings of the pagan historian Thallus, in his Third History. The significance of this account from the middle of the first century relates to the fact that it one of the earliest historical records of an event connected with the crucifixion and may have been written at the very time the first of the Synoptic Gospels were being composed by Matthew, Mark, and Luke. One of the most miraculous aspects of the crucifixion was the supernatural darkness that covered the land during the three hours while Jesus hung on the Cross. This miracle was recorded by several pagan historians. Matthew recorded this event in his Gospel: "Now from the sixth hour there was darkness over all the land unto the ninth hour" (Matthew 27:45). This remarkable event was also recorded in Mark 15:33 and Luke 23:45, 45.

Julius Africanus was a North African Christian teacher writing in A.D. 215. He recorded the writing of a pagan historian by the name Thallus who wrote his book in A.D. 52 only twenty years after the resurrection of Christ. Thallus wrote that the darkness totally covered the land at the time of the Passover in A.D. 32. Julius Africanus records, "As to [Jesus'] works severally, and His cures effected upon body and soul, and the mysteries of His doctrine, and the resurrection from the dead, these have been most authoritatively set forth by His disciples and apostles before us. On the whole world there pressed a most fearful darkness; and the rocks were rent by an earthquake, and many places in Judea and other districts were thrown down. This darkness, Thallus, in the third book of his History, calls as appears to me without reason, an eclipse of the sun. For the Hebrews celebrate the passover on the 14th day according to the moon, and the passion of our Saviour falls on the day before the passover; but an eclipse of the sun takes

place only when the moon comes under the sun." (Thallus (Samaritan, 1st century) -Julius Africanus, Extant Writings 18, Ante-Nicene Fathers, Vol 6).

Julius Africanus explained that Thallus' theory was unreasonable because an eclipse of the sun cannot occur at the same time there is a full moon. The moon is almost diametrically opposite the sun during full moon which would make a solar eclipse impossible at that time. This historical reference by the pagan historian Thallus confirmed the Gospel account regarding the miraculous darkness that covered the earth when Jesus was dying on the cross.

There are other ancient historical references to this supernatural darkness which occurred at the death of Christ. Modern astronomers confirm that Julius Africanus was right in his conclusion that a normal eclipse could not possibly occur at the time of a full moon, which occurred at the time of the Jewish Passover. The high priest carefully calculated the position of the full moon to the smallest degree because their whole Jewish liturgical calendar, especially Passover, depended on determining the precise lunar position. There are two important points here. First, the pagan Syrian historian Thallus, who was alive at the time of Jesus' death occurred has confirmed that darkness covered the earth at the very time recorded in the Gospels. Secondly, the fact that there was a full moon present makes it certain that this darkness was not an eclipse but that it was a supernatural event.

Another remarkable historical reference to this supernatural darkness is found in the manuscript of another pagan historical writer from Lydia named Phlegon who was granted freedom by the Emperor Adrian. In approximately A.D. 138 he noted the astonishing fact that this "great and extraordinary eclipse of the sun distinguished among all that had happened" occurred "in the fourth year of the two hundred and second olympiad" which was the nineteenth year of the reign of Tiberius Caesar as emperor of Rome. The Christian historian Eusebius (A.D. 300) in his Chronicle quoted from Phlegon's sixteen volume Collection of Olympiads and Chronicles as follows:

All which things agree with what happened at the time of our Saviour's passion. And so writes Phlegon, and excellent compiler of the Olympiads in his thirteenth book, saying: ÔIn the fourth year of the two hundred and second olympiad there was a great and extraordinary eclipse of the sun, distinguished among all that had happened before. At the sixth hour the day was turned into dark night, so that the stars in the heavens were seen, and there was an earthquake in Bithynia which overthrew many houses in the city of Nice.' So writes the above named author.

Furthermore, Phlegon indicated that the darkness that covered the earth began at the sixth hour, which is equivalent to our noon hour, is precisely the same time period as recorded in the Gospels in Matthew 27:45. The Christian writer Tertullian indicated that this supernatural darkness was recorded in the Roman archives that could still be consulted. "At the same time at noonday there was a great darkness. They thought it to be an eclipse, who did not know that this also was foretold concerning Christ. And some have denied it, not knowing the cause of such darkness. And yet you have that remarkable event recorded in your archives." Another writer, the martyr Lucian, spoke of the public archives which recorded these supernatural events as follows: "Look into your annals; there you will find that in the time of Pilate, when Christ suffered, the sun was obscured, and the light of the day was interrupted with darkness."

A Roman Government Inscription From the Reign of Emperor Nero

In my research I found a fascinating report of an inscription that was discovered in the ruins of Marquofiae in the Roman province of Lusitania (ancient Portugal) that is clearly dated to the reign of Emperor Nero who died in AD 68. This inscription reads as follows:

NERONI. CL. CAIS AUG. PONT. MAX.

OB PROVINC. LATRONIB

ET. HIS. QUI. NOVAM

GENERI. HUM SUPER

STITION. INCULCAB

PURGATAM.

The translation reads:

TO NERO CLAUDIUS CAESAR,

AUGUSTUS, HIGH PRIEST,

FOR CLEARING THE PROVINCE

OF ROBBERS, AND THOSE

WHO TAUGHT MANKIND

A NEW SUPERSTITION.

This inscription almost certainly refers to the new faith of Christianity because this was the only popular new religion that appeared throughout the Roman Empire during the reign of Nero. While Nero's heaviest persecution fell upon the Christians, a number of early Church writers (including Tertullian) affirm that the persecution was carried out throughout the provinces as well. The Roman accusation that the early Christians taught "a new superstition" was related to the Gospel's claim that Jesus had risen from the dead and that He was the Son of God. If this inscription is genuine it would represent the earliest pagan inscription that refers to the new faith of Christianity as having an impact throughout the empire only thirty-five years after the death and resurrection of Jesus.
_tomz165
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _tomz165 »

KimberlyAnn wrote:
richardMdBorn wrote:2) Catholics (used to?) believe that little children who were not baptized went to purgatory. I don't know what other Christians think happens to children who are too young to accept Christ. But, that Catholic idea is horribly unfair. (At least Mormons say that all little children get a free ticket to heaven).
The general Catholic view was that such children went to limbo.

Here is some more information on what the Catholic church teaches about unbaptised children but the Church herself has not pronounced officially on these questions herself and she has never officially said any particular person was in hell.

In Roman Catholic theology, Limbo (Latin limbus, edge or boundary, referring to the "edge" of Hell) is an idea about the afterlife condition of those who die in original sin without being assigned to the Hell of the damned. Limbo is not an official doctrine of the Roman Catholic Church or any other. Medieval theologians described the underworld ("hell", "hades", "infernum") as divided into four distinct parts: hell of the damned (which some call gehenna), purgatory, limbo of the fathers, and limbo of infants.

The Limbo of the Patriarchs or Limbo of the Fathers (Latin Limbus Patrum), also the Bosom of Abraham or Paradise, is seen as the temporary state of those who, in spite of the personal sins they may have committed, died in the friendship of God, but could not enter Heaven until redemption by Jesus Christ made it possible. The term "Limbo of the Fathers" was a medieval name for the part of the underworld (Hades) where the patriarchs of the Old Testament were believed to be kept until Christ's soul descended into it by his death[1] through crucifixion and freed them (see Harrowing of hell). The Catechism of the Catholic Church describes Christ's descent into "hell" as meaning primarily that "the crucified one sojourned in the realm of the dead prior to his resurrection. This was the first meaning given in the apostolic preaching to Christ's descent into hell: that Jesus, like all men, experienced death and in his soul joined the others in the realm of the dead." It adds: "But he descended there as Saviour, proclaiming the Good News to the spirits imprisoned there." It does not use the word "Limbo".[2]

The Limbo of Infants is a hypothesis about the permanent status of the unbaptized who die in infancy, too young to have committed personal sins, but not having been freed from original sin. Since at least the time of Augustine, theologians, considering baptism to be necessary for the salvation of those to whom it can be administered have debated the fate of unbaptized innocents, and the theory of the Limbo of Infants is one of the hypotheses that have been formulated as a proposed solution. Some who hold this theory regard the Limbo of Infants as a state of maximum natural happiness, others as one of "mildest punishment" consisting at least of privation of the beatific vision and of any hope of obtaining it. This theory, in any of its forms, has never been dogmatically defined by the Church, but it is permissible to hold it. Recent Catholic theological speculation tends to stress the hope that these infants may attain heaven instead of the supposed state of Limbo; however, the directly opposed theological opinion also exists, namely that there is no afterlife state intermediate between salvation and damnation, and that all the unbaptized are damned.[3]...

While the Roman Catholic Church has a defined doctrine on original sin, it has none on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants, leaving theologians free to propose different theories, which Catholics are free to accept or reject.[6]

The fundamental importance, in Roman Catholic theology, of the sacrament of water baptism gives rise to the argument that, because original sin excludes from the beatific vision enjoyed by the souls in heaven, those who have not been freed from it either by the sacrament or by baptism of desire or baptism of blood are not eligible for entry into heaven.


[edit] Latin Fathers
Saint Augustine of Hippo held that because of original sin, "such infants as quit the body without being baptized will be involved in the mildest condemnation of all. That person, therefore, greatly deceives both himself and others, who teaches that they will not be involved in condemnation; whereas the apostle says: 'Judgment from one offence to condemnation' (Romans 5:16), and again a little after: 'By the offence of one upon all persons to condemnation' (Romans 5:18)."[7]

The Council of North African bishops, including Augustine, held at Carthage in 418 did not explicitly endorse all aspects of Augustine's stern view about the destiny of infants who die without baptism, but the Latin Fathers of the fifth and sixth centuries did adopt his position, and it became a point of reference for Latin theologians in the Middle Ages.[8]


[edit] Medieval theologians
In the later medieval period, some theologians continued to hold Augustine's view. In the 1100s, Peter Abelard (1079 - 1142) said that these infants suffered no material torment or positive punishment, just the pain of loss at being denied the beatific vision. Others held that unbaptized infants suffered no pain at all: unaware of being deprived of the beatific vision, they enjoyed a state of natural, not supernatural happiness. This theory was associated with but independent of the term "Limbo of Infants", which was forged about the year 1300.[9]

If heaven is a state of supernatural happiness and union with God, and hell is understood as a state of torture and separation from God then, in this view, the Limbo of Infants, although technically part of hell (the outermost part, "limbo" meaning "outer edge" or "hem") is seen as a sort of intermediate state.

Saint Thomas Aquinas described the Limbo of Infants as an eternal state of natural joy, untempered by any sense of loss at how much greater their joy might have been had they been baptized. He argued that this was a reward of natural happiness for natural virtue; a reward of supernatural happiness for merely natural virtue would be inappropriate since, due to original sin, unbaptized children lack the necessary supernatural grace. In regards to baptism of desire, St Thomas Aquinas stated that only adults were capable of this,[10] and this view seemed to be accepted by the Council of Florence, which quotes St Thomas Aquinas in its Eleventh Session concerning baptism of infants.


[edit] Modern era
The teaching of the Roman Catholic Church expressed in the Catechism of the Catholic Church is that "Baptism is necessary for salvation for those to whom the Gospel has been proclaimed and who have had the possibility of asking for this sacrament" and that, since "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments," "Baptism of blood" (as in the case of the martyrs, who are understood to include the Holy Innocents) and, for catechumens at least, the explicit desire for Baptism, "together with repentance for their sins, and charity," ("Baptism of Desire") ensure salvation for those unable to receive Baptism by water.[11]

The Ecumenical Council of Florence (1442) spoke of baptism as necessary even for children and required that they be baptised soon after birth.[12] This had earlier been affirmed at the local Council of Carthage in 417. The Council of Florence also stated that those who die in original sin alone go to hell.[13] John Wycliffe's attack on the necessity of infant baptism was condemned by another general council, the Council of Constance.[14] The Council of Trent in 1547 explicitly stated that baptism (or desire for baptism) was the means by which one is transferred "from that state wherein man is born a child of the first Adam, to the state of grace, and of the adoption of the sons of God, through the second Adam, Jesus Christ, our Saviour.[15]

If adults could effectively be baptised through a desire for the sacrament when prevented from actually receiving it, some speculated that perhaps sacramentally unbaptised infants too might be saved by some waterless equivalent of ordinary baptism when prevented. Cajetan, a major 16th-century theologian, suggested that infants dying in the womb before birth, and so before ordinary sacramental baptism could be administered, might be saved through their mother's wish for their baptism. Thus, there was no clear consensus that the Council of Florence had excluded salvation of infants by such extra-sacramental equivalents of baptism.

Through the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries individual theologians (Bianchi in 1768, H. Klee in 1835, Caron in 1855, H. Schell in 1893) continued to formulate theories of how children who died unbaptised might still be saved. By 1952 a theologian such as Ludwig Ott could, in a widely used and well-regarded manual, openly teach the possibility that children who die unbaptised might be saved for heaven[16] — though he still represented their going to limbo as the commonly taught opinion. In its 1980 instruction on children's baptism the Congregation for the Doctrine of the Faith reaffirmed that "with regard to children who die without having received baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as indeed she does in the funeral rite established for them."[17] And in 1984, when Joseph Ratzinger, then Cardinal Prefect of that Congregation, stated that, as a private theologian, he rejected the claim that children who die unbaptised cannot attain salvation, he was speaking for many academic theologians of his background and training.

Thus in 1992, the Catechism of the Catholic Church, while affirming that "the Church does not know of any means other than Baptism that assures entry into eternal beatitude", but also stating that "God has bound salvation to the sacrament of Baptism, but he himself is not bound by his sacraments",[18] stated: "As regards children who have died without Baptism, the Church can only entrust them to the mercy of God, as she does in her funeral rites for them. Indeed, the great mercy of God who desires that all men should be saved, and Jesus' tenderness toward children which caused him to say: 'Let the children come to me, do not hinder them,'[19] allow us to hope that there is a way of salvation for children who have died without Baptism. All the more urgent is the Church's call not to prevent little children coming to Christ through the gift of holy Baptism."[20]

On April 22, 2007, the advisory body known as the International Theological Commission released a document, originally commissioned by Pope John Paul II, entitled "The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized."[21]

After tracing the history of the various opinions that have been and are held on the eternal fate of unbaptized infants, including that connected with the theory of the Limbo of Infants, and after examining the theological arguments, the document stated its conclusion as follows:

Our conclusion is that the many factors that we have considered above give serious theological and liturgical grounds for hope that unbaptized infants who die will be saved and enjoy the beatific vision. We emphasize that these are reasons for prayerful hope, rather than grounds for sure knowledge. There is much that simply has not been revealed to us.[22] We live by faith and hope in the God of mercy and love who has been revealed to us in Christ, and the Spirit moves us to pray in constant thankfulness and joy.[23]
What has been revealed to us is that the ordinary way of salvation is by the sacrament of baptism. None of the above considerations should be taken as qualifying the necessity of baptism or justifying delay in administering the sacrament. Rather, as we want to reaffirm in conclusion, they provide strong grounds for hope that God will save infants when we have not been able to do for them what we would have wished to do, namely, to baptize them into the faith and life of the Church.
Pope Benedict XVI authorized publication of this document, indicating that it is considered consonant with the Church's teaching, though it is not an official expression of that teaching.[24] Media reports that by the document "the Pope closed Limbo"[25] are thus without foundation. In fact, the document explicitly states that "the theory of limbo, understood as a state which includes the souls of infants who die subject to original sin and without baptism, and who, therefore, neither merit the beatific vision, nor yet are subjected to any punishment, because they are not guilty of any personal sin. This theory, elaborated by theologians beginning in the Middle Ages, never entered into the dogmatic definitions of the Magisterium, even if that same Magisterium did at times mention the theory in its ordinary teaching up until the Second Vatican Council. It remains therefore a possible theological hypothesis" (second preliminary paragraph); and in paragraph 41 it repeats that the theory of Limbo "remains a possible theological opinion". The document thus allows the hypothesis of a limbo of infants to be held as one of the existing theories about the fate of children who die without being baptised, a question on which there is "no explicit answer" from Scripture or tradition.[24] These theories are not official teaching of the Catholic Church, but are only opinions that the Church does not condemn, permitting them to be held by its members.


1. "Christ's soul descended only into that part of hell wherein the just were detained." Thomas Aquinas, [1]
2. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 633
3. Unbaptized Infants Suffer Fire and Limbo is a Heretical Pelagian Fable
6. Study by International Theological Commission, 19 January 2007, 32-40; Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1261
7. On Merit and the Forgiveness of Sins, and the Baptism of Infants, ; cf. Study by International Theological Commission, 19 January 2007, 15-18
Study by International Theological Commission, 19 January 2007, 19-21
8. Study by International Theological Commission, 19 January 2007, 22-25
9. Summa Theologica Question 68, Article 3 "I answer that, In this matter we must make a distinction and see whether those who are to be baptized are children or adults. For if they be children, Baptism should not be deferred. First, because in them we do not look for better instruction or fuller conversion. Secondly, because of the danger of death, for no other remedy is available for them besides the sacrament of Baptism. On the other hand, adults have a remedy in the mere desire for Baptism, as stated above (A[2])."
10. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1257-1261
11. Council of Florence Session 11 (Bull Cantate Domino): "With regard to children, since the danger of death is often present and the only remedy available to them is the sacrament of baptism by which they are snatched away from the dominion of the devil and adopted as children of God, it admonishes that sacred baptism is not to be deferred for forty or eighty days or any other period of time..."
12. Council of Florence Session 6 "..the souls of those who depart this life in actual mortal sin, or in original sin alone, go down straightaway to hell to be punished, but with unequal pains."
13. Session 15, 6 July 1415
14 Council of Trent, Session 6
15. "Other emergency means of baptism for children dying without sacramental baptism, such as prayer and the desire of the parents or the Church (vicarious baptism of desire - Cajetan), or the attainment of the use of reason in the moment of death, so that the dying child can decide for or against God (baptism of desire - H. Klee), or suffering and death of the child as quasi-Sacrament (baptism of suffering - H. Schell), are indeed possible, but their actuality cannot be proved from Revelation. Cf. Denzinger 712." Ludwig Ott, Fundamentals of Catholic Dogma, Book 2, Section 2, § 25 (p. 114 of the 1963 edition)
16. Pastoralis Actio, 13
17. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1257
18. Mark 10:14; cf. 1 Tim 2:4
19. Catechism of the Catholic Church, 1261
20. The Hope of Salvation for Infants Who Die without Being Baptized, ITC, April 22, 2007.
21. cf. John 16:12
22. cf. 1 Thes 5:18
23. a b Catholic News Service (April 20, 2007). "Vatican commission: Limbo reflects 'restrictive view of salvation'". Retrieved 2007-04-20.
_Seven
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Seven »

"Jason Bourne"

Traditional Christians believe three personages co -exist as one God. Yet somehow they believe that as a separte being God the son came to earth. It was not the Father. The Father was still in heaven. Jesus referred to His Father as greater than He was. I am not sure how they reconcile this but if you say it was God the Father they will declare it a heresy.


Hi Jason, :)
I get that. I think you misunderstand what I'm trying to say and I'm probably just really bad at articulating my thoughts. I've spoken with many Christians about this topic over the years and think I have a good understanding of what they believe.
I'm not arguing that most Christians believe in Modalism (although the scriptures seem to indicate that as a strong possibility). What I'm saying is that they believe Jesus IS God. There is only ONE GOD. However God came down to save us, whether it be another personage who will co exist with the Father in heaven (the Trinitarian view) or modalism doesn't change that it was God who saved us and didn't send one of his spirit children to do it. The God I pray to at night, would be the same God that saved me.

Mormons believe Jesus Christ is a separate God, our eldest brother who volunteered to be our Savior in the pre existence. Huge difference from how we pray in the LDS faith. It was very confusing to me as a child because my relationship with Heavenly Father was separate from Christ. Christians don't have that problem.
It's hard to explain unless you've experienced that disjointed relationship with Christ. Don't get me wrong....I always loved my Savior, was so grateful for his sacrifice and worshiped Him, but He wasn't the person I prayed to for peace, forgiveness, healing, help,......Christ gets an honorable mention at the end of our prayers but the Father was definitely NOT Jesus in our LDS worship. They were only One God in purpose. How can you pray and have the same relationship with two separate Gods?

That is why Traditional Christians have a more personal relationship with Christ. He is both the Father and the Son, and the Spirit given to us as children of Him.




Alma 11:
38 Now Zeezrom saith again unto him: Is the Son of God the very Eternal Father?
39 And Amulek said unto him: Yea, he is the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth, and all things which in them are; he is the beginning and the end, the first and the last;
40 And he shall come into the world to redeem his people; and he shall take upon him the transgressions of those who believe on his name; and these are they that shall have eternal life, and salvation cometh to none else.

"Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I AM Jesus Christ. I AM THE FATHER AND THE SON" (Ether 3:14).

"Teach them that redemption cometh through Christ THE LORD, WHO IS THE VERY ETERNAL FATHER. Amen" (Mosiah 16:15; see also 2Nephi 31:21; Mosiah 15:1-5; Alma 11:38,39; 3Nephi 11:27,36; Mormon 7:7).




Well that is your own doctrine. I am happy to be corrected but I do not think any Christian religion teaches it was heavenly Father that died for them.



Again, you misunderstood me. I'm not saying that God the Father came down as our Father (obviously he came as "The Son"), but that Jesus Christ was God in the flesh, that He and the Father are the same God, and Christians only worship one God.
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:30 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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_Seven
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Seven »

This is the only answer I have found some peace with.
Christ's Atonement satisfied the demands of justice.
Is it the law of heaven that requires it? Or, is it the justice that we are demanding of sins?


"Jason Bourne"
I see nothing in your comments that answers the question of why an omnipotent God cannot forgive without shedding someone's blood.


Unless I misunderstand your question, (I thought you were referring to Christ's atoning sacrifice) I can see the answer but I can't explain it very well I guess. I've pondered over and studied this topic a lot throughout my life because I wanted a testimony of it.

Why can't God just make us like him without enduring the horrors of mortality? Why did the Fall have to happen for us to progress when things would have been great in paradise? Why is there sin? That's the kind of question you are asking.

I assume you believe we are here for a purpose and that there is a plan, and that the Fall was part of the plan so that we could learn good from evil by tasting sin. I assume you believe we are here on earth to BECOME [like God or in Mormonism a God]. The atonement was the way that God could reclaim us and meet the demands of justice for our sins, and teach us charity, which is required to enter his presence. Demands that may be the Law of the Universe and God is bound by them, or demands of justice that maybe we have demanded against those who have hurt us.
Human nature is to believe they don't deserve the same reward as us for being sinful, they might be forgiven but they don't deserve the same glory as someone else and shouldn't be in God's kingdom. It's human nature to want and expect punishment and justice toward the sinner and Christ's blood met that demand if the sinner repents. That was the reason I shared those contrasting stories of forgiveness. The one girl (in Elder Scott's talk) has charity because of her understanding of the atonement, and that the demands of justice were met with Christ's blood for her father's sins after he repented. The other girl does not believe her abuser can truly have forgiveness and places him in a lower kingdom so that justice can be served, even though this person has repented and Christ already shed bled (met the demands of justice for his sin). She does not understand the atonement and cannot enter God's presence until she has charity toward him.

With the repentance process and forgiveness made possible through the atonement, we truly learn how to love the way God loves us. There are some great talks I've read over the years by LDS General authorities on why blood had to be shed to meet the demands of justice. I've also read some great books by traditional Christians who have a great understanding of the commandment to forgive and thereby possess charity in relation to the sacrifice.

I won't waste any more time explaining my personal understanding of the sacrifice since you feel I am way off from your question but just wanted to clarify if my other post didn't make sense to your question.
Last edited by Anonymous on Thu Feb 12, 2009 10:35 pm, edited 1 time in total.
"Happiness is the object and design of our existence...
That which is wrong under one circumstance, may be, and often is, right under another." Joseph Smith
_The Nehor
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _The Nehor »

antishock8 wrote:
The Nehor wrote:That cannibal is my brother and a fellow human being on this planet yet you act like the greatest crime is that God allowed him to exist. Better get on correcting that. According to your worldview murder should do it.


Aside from the fact that you consider a cannibal to be your brother I can say that, for me, the greatest crime within the context of this discussion is that your god intentionally designed and then created a cannibal, unleashing it onto humanity knowing full well what it would do.

That is beyond disgusting and hateful. It's evil.


I'm not sure why it's evil.......I mean, if you think about it, killing someone to eat them makes a lot more sense then killing them over a mate, for personal slights, to establish authority, or most other reasons. At least there's a reason for it.

I admit I do feel a natural repugnance to cannibalism (similar to the one I feel for homosexuality) but I've been assured that my repugnance to homosexuality is not rational and should be ignored so I would like to see a rational reasoning for why cannibalism is bad.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
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_Roger Morrison
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Liz... from your post: (I'm in this)

None. It was my call. I stand beside the call. If Shades disagrees, he's free to override me.


Roger wrote:
The photo was horrible and very disturbing, but I assume it was/is real. It did not hurt or harm me in any real way. In fact it informed me and drew my attention to the degree to which humans can devolve and be conditioned and indoctrinated to behave. Hideous as it was/is, and educating in its reality, no one, without going through the hoop set by personal autocratic supersensitivity on an adult site, can any longer view it...

I appreciate your feeling. Obviously, there were others, including myself, frankly, who felt differently. Above you said there was non but Jason?? Honestly, I think you're being a little overdramatic Your subjective, personal opinion...Moderators should be neutral... in stating that I am presenting some huge your word not mine hoop for someone to jump through. How hard is it to click on a link? Not hard at all. But I think fewer than 100% of readers press every "click"... There would have to be more than simple curiousity to motivate me. Can't speak for others... I didn't delete the image. No you didn't, you erased it from public view Anyone who wants to view it is still free to view it. All I did was state that the image is graphic. (RM) What image isn't graphic?? You, yourself stated that you found the image hideous. I find lots of things "hideous", but I don't want someone to remove them from my sight/vison. How did I misrepresent the image in any way? What makes you introduce the word "misrepresent"?
I really am surprised that you consider this high-handed censorship..."High-handed censorship"?? Your words. I suggested it was uncalled for, especially on an adult forum.


Liz, of course it was your call... OTOH, did you consult with other mods before making "it"? I don't expect Doc "will over ride" you. Unless a case is flagrantly unjust, top-guys generally support their staff; good labour--especially voluntary labour--relations. I DO appreciate your time. "Thank You" for it...
In this case, however, I am disappointed in you judgement.
Warm regards, Roger
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_Roger Morrison
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _Roger Morrison »

Nehor, you said;

I'm not sure why it's evil.......I mean, if you think about it, killing someone to eat them makes a lot more sense then killing them over a mate, for personal slights, to establish authority, or most other reasons. At least there's a reason for it.

I admit I do feel a natural repugnance to cannibalism (similar to the one I feel for homosexuality) but I've been assured that my repugnance to homosexuality is not rational and should be ignored so I would like to see a rational reasoning for why cannibalism is bad.



I don't know Bro, but I often get a smile out of your responses. You do, in yer own quirky way, make more sense than some others here... Cannalbalism has long been the means of others surviving. The Donner Party comes to mind...

And IF, as my Dad long ago directed, "don't kill anything you don't intend to eat." was a military edict, the Killing-Fields of the distant and current times would probably be less vast than they have been...

Your equating cannalbalism to homophobia may not be far off centre either. Both practices would best be things of the past. Then folks would have no fear of being eaten or beaten...
Roger
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Have you noticed what a beautiful day it is? Some can't...
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_antishock8
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Re: Problems With Christianity

Post by _antishock8 »

Jersey Girl wrote:
Aside from the fact that you consider a cannibal to be your brother I can say that, for me, the greatest crime within the context of this discussion is that your god intentionally designed and then created a cannibal, unleashing it onto humanity knowing full well what it would do.

That is beyond disgusting and hateful. It's evil.


Why is the presence of the cannibal either disgusting, hateful or evil?


Probably for the same reason that their god created rapists.
You can’t trust adults to tell you the truth.

Scream the lie, whisper the retraction.- The Left
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