What do LDS generally believe about interracial marriage?

[_Dr. Shades]

Shades provided no evidence that the death penalty was actually in effect in Utah for marriage between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman.

But I did provide evidence that Brigham fully intended to implement the death penalty if he ever got the chance.

[_Chap]

Sure, but you did contest the idea that a ban was ever in effect.

That's correct. Shades provided no evidence that the death penalty was actually in effect in Utah for marriage between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman.

And I am inclined to think that there would be few if any instances in which the death penalty proclaimed by BY for sex between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman (which for most people who heard BY would have been interpreted as meaning a black woman) was actually carried out.

The principal reasons would be, I suggest:

(a) After having heard BY speaking from the pulpit in his distinctively emphatic way, it would have required a pretty foolhardy person to go out and actually have sex with a black woman in a way that might have become publicly known.

(b) Fortunately, even if people do belong to a religion whose prophet for the time being happens to be given to ludicrously bloodthirsty proclamations of this kind, there often seems to be a kind of innate human sense of proportion in operation (so long as other circumstances are not too abnormal) that makes them decide to turn a blind eye, or come to the conclusion that the prophet couldn't have been talking about Sam and Eliza, and so on.

[_DarkHelmet]

Sure, but you did contest the idea that a ban was ever in effect.

That's correct. Shades provided no evidence that the death penalty was actually in effect in Utah for marriage between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman.

If Brigham Young clearly intended to mete out the divinely-prescribed punishment for black/white intermarriage, then a ban certainly WAS in effect.

But Shades provided no evidence that the death penalty was actually in effect in Utah for marriage between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman.

There's that famous quote from a conference address.

On a side note, I didn't know that the "chosen seed" that he referred to was "priesthood holding men" and the seed of cain was black women. Could the chosen seed have referred to white LDS women, or were only LDS prieshood holding men considered the chosen seed?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Shades provided no evidence that the death penalty was actually in effect in Utah for marriage between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman.

But I did provide evidence that Brigham fully intended to implement the death penalty if he ever got the chance.

Which, even if true, would be a different proposition (on several counts) than the one you first proposed and then, subsequently, with your first bit of "evidence," wrongly thought you were supporting.

Your second bit of evidence may or may not be reliable. When and if I get a chance, I'll look into it. As things stand, it smells a bit funny to me.

And I am inclined to think that there would be few if any instances in which the death penalty proclaimed by BY for sex between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman (which for most people who heard BY would have been interpreted as meaning a black woman) was actually carried out.

The principal reasons would be, I suggest:

(a) After having heard BY speaking from the pulpit in his distinctively emphatic way, it would have required a pretty foolhardy person to go out and actually have sex with a black woman in a way that might have become publicly known.

(b) Fortunately, even if people do belong to a religion whose prophet for the time being happens to be given to ludicrously bloodthirsty proclamations of this kind, there often seems to be a kind of innate human sense of proportion in operation (so long as other circumstances are not too abnormal) that makes them decide to turn a blind eye, or come to the conclusion that the prophet couldn't have been talking about Sam and Eliza, and so on.

Your speculations do absolutely nothing to support Shades's claim.

There's that famous quote from a conference address.

On a side note, I didn't know that the "chosen seed" that he referred to was "priesthood holding men" and the seed of cain was black women. Could the chosen seed have referred to white LDS women, or were only LDS prieshood holding men considered the chosen seed?

Dunno.

But neither reading supports Shades's claim.

[_cinepro]

Bishop Peterson, if a hypothetical mixed-race couple met with you before their marriage for some pre-marriage counseling from their Bishop, would you even raise the issue of their different-race status in discussing their future life together?

Honestly, in my 30+ years of limited life experience, I can't think of a single mixed-race couple I've known or heard of that divorced because of differences in their cultures or backgrounds. I just recently went to a party at a Somoan/Caucasian couple's house, and the extended Samoan family was there (along with much island food), and the wife was happy and joking with us about some of the adjustments she'd had to make in accomadating his family at gatherings. But we've known the couple for years, and they are doing great.

Is there any data to back up the idea that mixed-race marriages fail at a greater rate than same-race marriages?

[_Chap]

And I am inclined to think that there would be few if any instances in which the death penalty proclaimed by BY for sex between a priesthood-holding man and a priesthood-lineage-ineligible woman (which for most people who heard BY would have been interpreted as meaning a black woman) was actually carried out.

The principal reasons would be, I suggest:

(a) After having heard BY speaking from the pulpit in his distinctively emphatic way, it would have required a pretty foolhardy person to go out and actually have sex with a black woman in a way that might have become publicly known.

(b) Fortunately, even if people do belong to a religion whose prophet for the time being happens to be given to ludicrously bloodthirsty proclamations of this kind, there often seems to be a kind of innate human sense of proportion in operation (so long as other circumstances are not too abnormal) that makes them decide to turn a blind eye, or come to the conclusion that the prophet couldn't have been talking about Sam and Eliza, and so on.

Your speculations do absolutely nothing to support Shades's claim.

Gracious me, I wasn't here to do anything so vulgar as support Shades.

Still, I'd like to see someone come up with two better reasons why people didn't often get killed for having sex with black people in the time of BY, despite his bloodcurdling pulpit utterances.

Or do you think he held up a big sign while he gave that sermon saying something like "Chill out brothers and sisters - I don't mean what I'm saying. It's just some of the stuff I put in so it will get into the Journal of Discourses and mislead those anti-Mormons in a century or so"?

[_Daniel Peterson]

Bishop Peterson, if a hypothetical mixed-race couple met with you before their marriage for some pre-marriage counseling from their Bishop, would you even raise the issue of their different-race status in discussing their future life together?

I might. But I might not.

I have very frank talks with the couples I send to the temple.

I try to warn them against possible pitfalls and challenges, as specifically as I'm able.

Honestly, in my 30+ years of limited life experience, I can't think of a single mixed-race couple I've known or heard of that divorced because of differences in their cultures or backgrounds.

I think relationships are often strained because of inherited cultural differences, even with the same race and general culture.

Every marriage, without exception, is, in my view, an attempt to merge two different cultures.

Is there any data to back up the idea that mixed-race marriages fail at a greater rate than same-race marriages?

I have no idea.

[_antishock8]

I HAVE NO IDEA.

Well, that sounds like the perfect person to be counselling others on marriage as related to race and cultural differences.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Poor antishock8 doesn't trust adults to tell him the truth, but adults have typically had experiences -- and sometimes quite a few of them -- that the smaller fry haven't.

Adults with normal intelligence who have reflected on their experience and on that of others whom they've known often have useful insights to share with younger people, even without the crutch of social science statistics. In older times, this capacity was sometimes referred to as "wisdom."

[Guest]

And I suppose the Fat Man is a certified counselor with a special emphasis on race relations? He's married, himself, to a non-white from a "different cultural background"? What makes the Fat Man qualified other than colloquial Mormon quips and "experiences" to offer mixed-race couples little nuggets and pearls of wisdom? The "Spirit"?

Please.









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