Bill Hamblin's idiotic Book of Mormon ''challenges''

[_Chap]

Had you been centrally involved in the academies of Athens, Alexandria, and Rome between 150 and 200 AD, you would likely (and, in a sense, reasonably) have dismissed Christianity as a marginal movement of no interest, with no worthy intellectual tradition.

Even if you don't accept its doctrinal claims, Christianity has proved to be extraordinarily important as a historical phenomenon. Yet I think it pretty clear that, had you surveyed Greek and Roman intellectuals and "academics" in AD 150 or AD 200, few if any would have deemed it worth serious attention (except, perhaps, as a regional political matter). I choose those dates quite deliberately: Mormonism will be 200 years old in 2030.

These posts were made in the context of a discussion in which DCP showed concern that the marginality of LDS belief might be held to discredit it (not a point I was actually trying to make, by the way). The implication seems to be that the CoJCoLDS, as intellectually marginal today as Christianity once was, could in due course become as intellectually important as Christianity later became.

There is a common confidence-building tactic for those who hold positions for which there is little support. It has the form.

A. Once most people thought that <Copernicus'/Einstein's/...> ideas were obvious nonsense, but eventually those ideas became widely accepted.

B. Most people think that my ideas are obvious nonsense.

C. Therefore one day my ideas will eventually become widely accepted. Or at least they may be, and you can't prove they won't.

Arguments of this kind (which could be used by any bunch of nuts from Raelians to Scientologists) appear to be not so much "Having your cake and eating it" but "Offering people a slice of cake for which one has thus far obtained neither the ingredients not the recipe."

[_Daniel Peterson]

1.

Rodney Stark.

2.

That wasn't my argument.

3.

What am I here for?

[_Dr. Shades]

Rodney Stark.

You're aware that the trends he identified did not hold, and in fact began tapering dramatically almost immediately after he made his predictions, right?

[_Daniel Peterson]

I'm aware that we're in a downturn and that he was talking about long term trends.

Whether the downturn is a temporary hiccup -- we've had them before -- or a permanent fact remains to be seen. (I'm aware of the faith-commitments of many critics on this question, but am personally agnostic on the matter.)

[_solomarineris]

Surely DCP is not saying that he prefers RfM?

Unbelievably, there's even less substantive conversation over there. And more bile.

less substantive reason definitely originates from you. When Scratch & clones asking hard Q's, most of you apologists plead ignorance or evade it, like Herr Hamblin does.
I agree MAD&b has a little more substance because there's hardly opposition or dissent tolerated, when chaff (anti's) is separated from wheat (good guys) you have such a pristine environment.
Congratulations.

[_Chap]

1.
Rodney Stark.

I find that a thoughtful LDS like David Stewart is more realistic in tone in estimating the future of the CoJCoLDS, as well as going into things in more depth, when he says things like this:

http://www.cumorah.com/lawoftheharvest. ... c162146548

A closer examination of growth and retention data demonstrates that LDS growth trends have been widely overstated. Annual LDS growth has progressively declined from over 5 percent in the late 1980s to less than 3 percent from 2000 to 2005.[11] Since 1990, LDS missionaries have been challenged to double the number of baptisms, but instead the number of baptisms per missionary has halved. During this same period, other international missionary-oriented faiths have reported accelerating growth, including the Seventh-Day Adventists, Southern Baptists, Assemblies of God, and Evangelical (5.6 percent annual growth)[12] and Pentecostal churches (7.3 percent annual growth). For 2004, 241,239 LDS convert baptisms were reported, the lowest number of converts since 1987. The number of convert baptisms increased to 272,845 in 2006, but both missionary productivity and the total number of baptisms remained well below the levels of the early 1990s. Even more cause for concern is the fact that little of the growth that occurs is real: while nearly 80 percent of LDS convert baptisms occur outside of the United States, barely one in four international converts becomes an active or participating member of the Church. Natural LDS growth has also fallen as the LDS birth rate has progressively declined. LDS church membership has continued to increase, but the rate of growth has slowed considerably.

But time will tell, won't it?

2. That wasn't my argument.

It would be wrong to trepass on DCP's time by asking him to indicate what his argument was, if it was not along the lines "Christianity was once a relatively insignificant group; later it became significant. The CoJCoLDS is a relatively insignificant group; later it may become significant". Let his intended message remain hidden in impressive obscurity if he wishes.

3. What am I here for?

I suppose DCP must be here because he enjoys saying that kind of thing. He does it so often, and he does have full exercise of his free agency.

[_Daniel Peterson]

It would be wrong to trepass on DCP's time by asking him to indicate what his argument was

I've already done so, quite clearly.

And now I'm headed off to the first of the meetings that will occupy me until late tonight. I leave for Arizona in the morning.

[_Chap]

It would be wrong to trepass on DCP's time by asking him to indicate what his argument was

I've already done so, quite clearly.

And now I'm headed off to the first of the meetings that will occupy me until late tonight. I leave for Arizona in the morning.

I am happy to acknowledge that DCP has reached the maximum of clarity that he feels is advisable on this topic.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I am happy to acknowledge that DCP has reached the maximum of clarity that he feels is advisable on this topic.

I've reached the maximum of clarity that is possible on the subject without devoting more time to it than I have or care to devote.

[_Joey]

I've reached the maximum of clarity that is possible on the subject without devoting more time to it than I have or care to devote.

As you are averaging about 400 posts per months (just on this board), seems like time is a commodity you have plenty of in your life!