Former Oklahoma City Temple President Apostatized

[_antishock8]

West Coast ridicules his own faith's book (Pauline Christianity)

Do I have to resort to Dick, Jane, and Spot with you? I referred to the pseudo-Pauline epistles, i.e., those epistles written by later authors in Paul's name. I did not refer to "Pauline Christianity." Dingle nuts. It's still considered "Pauline Christianity". You reject it.

Regardless, the pseudo-epistles, in yours and many others' opinions are a fraud. What a fabulous irony we're witnessing right now. You don't believe in that particular piece of Pauline Christianity because you share the opinion with others that those letters are a fraud. Wow. This just keeps getting better and better. You reject, now, most if not all of the Old Testament, trinitarianism, and parts of the New Testament! Lol.

Well, god damn it, West Coast! You're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness!

rejects trinitarianism (which most of the Christian world embraces)

So? So, most of Christianity is a "patent fraud" then?

So. West Coast. What church do you attend?

I don't, blockhead. Do I have to spell that out for you in crayon?

I think you do have an affiliation of some sort. I can't put my finger on it, but you're coming off as too dogmatic not to have some sort of connection with some structured belief system.

Which one is it?

[_Calculus Crusader]

CC is so smart, he doesn't need to attend a church. Churches are for people who aren't as smart as CC.

To the contrary, I would gladly attend a church, if I thought there were a church representative of genuine Christianity.

[_Calculus Crusader]

You reject, now, most if not all of the Old Testament, trinitarianism, and parts of the New Testament! Lol.

...You're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness!

Quit pretending like you know what you are talking about. JWs accept all of the epistles attributed to Paul as authentic and they accept all of the Old Testament and do not assign it "deuterocanonical" status as I do. The only thing we have in common that you've listed is rejection of the doctrine of the trinity.

So, most of Christianity is a "patent fraud" then?

I'm not going to repeat myself.

[_antishock8]

You reject, now, most if not all of the Old Testament, trinitarianism, and parts of the New Testament! Lol.

...You're starting to sound like a Jehovah's Witness!

Quit pretending like you know what you are talking about. JWs accept all of the epistles attributed to Paul as authentic and they accept all of the Old Testament and do not assign it "deuterocanonical" status as I do. The only thing we have in common that you've listed is rejection of the doctrine of the trinity.

Holy sh*t. You're godd*amn JW!

Wait. Holy sh*t! Is DART a JW, too????

This would make so much F**KING SENSE now.

F**king JW's. No WONDER you're such an asshole. Freakin' JW's...

So, most of Christianity is a "patent fraud" then?

I'm not going to repeat myself.

So you DO consider much of your own faith, as much as you can being a quasi-JW, as a patent fraud! This is RICH. Just stinking RICH.

So. Calculus Crusader believes in the following:

1. God is not a Trinity; the doctrine is inspired by the Devil
2. Jesus is not to be worshiped or prayed to-he is only an angel (a.k.a. Michael the archangel)
3. Jesus Christ is a "created being," who at one time did not exist
4. The Holy Spirit is not a person but is "God's active force" i.e. gravity, electricity etc.
5. Heaven is hope only for select Jehovah's Witnesses. The majority of JWs hope to live on "paradise earth"
6. Heaven is limited only to 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses.There are only 9,105 alive today (2006 figures)
7. Jehovah's Witnesses are the only "true Christians." All churches and denominations are considered "false religion"
8. There is no Hell or eternal judgment ("Hell" is simply the grave)
9. There is no life after death except for the 144,000 Jehovah's Witnesses
10. Salvation is earned only by being a loyal Jehovah's Witness
11. Jesus second coming happened invisibly and secretly in 1914
12. The "first resurrection" occurred in 1918
13. Jesus did not rise from the dead bodily but as a spirit being
14. Jesus was equal to Adam (just a man)
15. Jesus could have sinned and failed in his mission
16. Jesus was not born the savior but became the savior at his baptism
17. God is not omnipresent
18. God is not omniscient
19. JWs are not sure of their salvation
20. All earthly governments are controlled by the Devil
21. The Holy Spirit is only available to select Jehovah's Witnesses

[_Jersey Girl]

In your opinion, can some who study the came think the Chesney's studied conclude that staying members is the best thing and maintain integrity, honesty etc. Or are your the only the ones that leave deserving of these accolades?

Wow. I've watched these types of online exchanges take place between ex and current LDS for years and usually I stay out of them because I don't own the experience as most all of you do, however, I feel compelled to raise the following issues/pose questions to those who choose to continue membership for a variety of reasons, not the least of which are family/social/cultural bonds and the wholesome influences for families/children.

With regards to what Jason said about maintaining integrity/honesty while staying a member of the church, here goes...

1. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while continuing membership in a church when they have lost faith in the integrity of the church?

2. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while continuing membership in a church without sharing with their family (spouse/children) that they have lost faith in the integrity of the church?

3. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while continuing membership in a church without sharing with their children that they have lost faith in the integrity of the church, knowing that their children will likely make marital unions with other church member, thus involving themselves further in a religious community that may not function based on integrity?

4. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while continuing membership in a church without sharing with their children that they have lost faith in the integrity of the church, knowing that their children will likely go on missions and draw in other converts to that which lacks integrity?


5. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while not being fully honest with spouse and children?

[_harmony]

5. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while not being fully honest with spouse and children?

Personally, I think full honesty is overrated. I don't tell my husband and children when I have a yeast infection or explosive diarrhea. I don't tell them the reason I fear colonoscopies so much. I don't tell them when I've done something stupid or embarrassing or foolish. I don't tell them when I pick my nose or scratch my butt. I don't tell them how much money I make a year. I don't tell them how much my shoes or my manicures cost. I don't tell them when I'm angry with one of their siblings or their father. I sure as heck don't tell them when I've lost money on a slot machine in Reno!

Everyone is entitled to privacy about that which they prefer to keep private, and I think that includes one's testimony, if that is what one wishes.

In my case, when I have to choose between something to do with myself (ie, my personal integrity, my personal well being, etc) and something to do with my family (peace and harmony within the family, maintaining family ties, etc.) I will always always choose family. I am aware that my children, their spouses, and their children do not always get along, but when they are here at my home or at a family function, I expect them to lay aside their differences and get along. Yes, that is not necessarily fully honest nor is it full of personal integrity, but that is my wish, so they do as I expect. Issues can be dealt with privately, between the affected parties, or they can use me as a mediator, but under no circumstances is anyone to bring that sort of atmosphere to the family gathering. We don't have much time together as it is, and I refuse to allow hard feelings and anger to cloud what little time I have with all of them.

The prayer given last weekend, when all 28 of them were home prior to my youngest son's deployment, was quite indicative of this expectation: "please bless us that we will have fun together with no arguments." I expect that kind of behavior out of my adult children, the same as I expect it out of myself.

If I had to, I would live a lie until the day I die, rather than risk tearing this family apart. So I think it's a good thing that I have found a way to reconcile my testimony of the gospel and my lack of testimony of church history, and maintain my membership in good standing.

I see placing myself and my needs above the needs of my family as selfish and self-centered. Which is not to say I don't place my needs first occasionally. That just means that overall, I take "family first" quite seriously.

Others may do things differently. We all have to walk our own path. And I don't care who doesn't approve of my way of doing things, whether they be TBM, critic, ex, or never a member. They don't walk around in my skin.

Now it's time to take my granddaughters to church. I even have a new dress.

[_Yoda]

Now it's time to take my granddaughters to church. I even have a new dress.

I agree with everything you said.

And I want pictures of the new dress.

[_Seven]

"Jersey Girl"

With regards to what Jason said about maintaining integrity/honesty while staying a member of the church, here goes...

1. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while continuing membership in a church when they have lost faith in the integrity of the church?

Hi Jersey Girl, :)
These questions are of high importance and kept me inactive for a few years, but I found a way to stay. John Dehlin's previous site helped me sort out some of this, along with internet friends who have made it work with integrity.

When I participate in church discussions or teach lessons, I never pretend to believe in something I don't. I DON’T KNOW if the Book of Mormon is not of God, and I don't know if it is. I'd like to know and have tried everything in my power to find out but I've never had that kind of a sure testimony, even as a TBM. I had tried to convince myself that I knew, but deep down I didn't. (I was BIC)

Most of my LDS friends and family know I am not an orthodox Mormon anymore because they were involved when I began to ask questions on polygamy and racism. I'm an emotional person and reached out for help when the best thing would have been to keep it private. So my situation is going to be different from others non believers here who remain active.

If I have the opportunity to correct myths or misunderstandings of church doctrines with LDS, I will try to carefully speak up when appropriate. If I am given the chance to share my beliefs to give others another viewpoint to consider, I will try to. Surprisingly, they still want me to serve in the church.


In my Ward calling, I have had to address some issues I was not comfortable with in teaching the children.
They are encouraged to bare testimony of the church to fulfill a requirement. The certainty in which LDS bare testimony is very intimidating to these very impressionable children. I spoke up to a few leaders and let them know I want their focus to be on having faith in Christ and a testimony of living the gospel, not on knowing the church is true. I shared my experience growing up LDS, how I felt something was wrong with me for not having this sure knowledge that adults and my friends claimed to have. How it made me feel unworthy and unloved to be ignored by God while he answered their prayers. My foundation became more in the church instead of Christ. In other words, if the church wasn’t true, then there could be no God or Jesus in my previous beliefs.

I also shared how my very devout LDS mother (who has always claimed to know with every fiber of her being that the church was true and Joseph Smith a true Prophet) recently admitted “it’s just something we are expected to say” when I confronted her.

I haven't been released from my calling for expressing this (yet) and I hope it gives the Primary leaders something to ponder over.

Just a funny story to share...
I was teaching a lesson (to 8 year olds) and a kid had asked who Emma Smith was. By accident I replied “Emma was Joseph Smith’s first wife.”
You should have seen the hands shoot up in the air with questions. “First wife? He had more than one?” “Did Emma die and he remarried?” “Who were his other wives?” "how old was Emma when she died?" I felt my face turn red and hot with embarrassment and fear of how to answer them properly. It was an innocent slip up and there was no way out of it. I tried to change the subject but it didn’t work. There was another leader in the room who stepped in when she some me struggling and said “Emma was Joseph’s main wife.”
I didn't want angry parents calling the bishop over it.
It wouldn't have been a big deal if it wasn't me who had said it. Innoculation can't come from a teacher who had been inactive over church history.

[_Seven]

2. How does one maintain integrity/honesty while continuing membership in a church without sharing with their family (spouse/children) that they have lost faith in the integrity of the church?

It would have been impossible for me to hide any of the doubts and struggles from my husband. I was so distraught over what I had learned (to the point of despair) and he was there through all the tears and pain/sickness as I studied church history. I can’t imagine how others go through that alone or without the support of internet friends. I have so much respect and admiration for those who are able to quietly deal with their emotions and stay in the church, just as I admire those who are brave enough to leave the church despite the uncharitable consequences from LDS.

My husband saw firsthand the despair I felt as I studied Joseph Smith’s polygamy and all the hidden doctrines and teachings from the Prophets. I was desperate for help and regrettably opened up to people who would not believe anything I had read. Although my spouse takes a more apologetic approach to the church, he knows I never lost my faith because of sin, or laziness, or desire to leave, etc. The best comparison to his current beliefs on the church would be the poster here “Jason Bourne.”

I chose to stay in the church for several reasons, but mainly to support my husband and be the person he married. I changed and he didn’t. Automatically that puts him in the sympathetic position. It’s not his fault I didn’t understand the religion and history before we married in the temple. I have never desired for him to leave the church.

[_Jason Bourne]

I know Christianity better than you,

Perhaps.

Perhaps not. You really do not know that for sure.

and I am not interested in your ignorance masquerading as informed opinion

Of course not. You are only interested in bloviating.

. Holy Joe was a narcissist, a manipulator, a charlatan and a philanderer. Accept it and move on.

I am aware of Smith's problems. You don't see me defending much of what he did. I am simply pointing out your myth is no better than anyone Else's. Deal with it.