Egypt wants all their antiques back

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_The Nehor
_Emeritus
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Re: Egypt wants all their antiques back

Post by _The Nehor »

DarkHelmet wrote:
The Nehor wrote:I think we make as big a deal over them as we do the sources and aids for other scriptures. The gold plates aren't mentioned much; neither are the seerstones or the Urim and Thummim. The emphasis always has been on studying the scripture itself, not where it comes from.


you must not have attended the same primary, seminary, priesthood, sunday school, and Gospel doctrine classes that I did. The gold plates and urim and thummim are mentioned A LOT. The seerstone and papyrus are rarely, if ever, talked about. Interestingly, the seesrstone and papyrus are in the church's possession, while the U&T and gold plates are not. I see a correlation here.


Guess not, we only talked about the Gold Plates when we talked about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon and we only talked about the papyri when we talked about the origin of the Book of Abraham. We probably talked about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon more then the Book of Abraham simply because it's a larger and more important book but I don't see your correlation.
"Surely he knows that DCP, The Nehor, Lamanite, and other key apologists..." -Scratch clarifying my status in apologetics
"I admit it; I'm a petty, petty man." -Some Schmo
_cinepro
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Re: Egypt wants all their antiques back

Post by _cinepro »

The Nehor wrote: We probably talked about the coming forth of the Book of Mormon more then the Book of Abraham simply because it's a larger and more important book but I don't see your correlation.


I would argue that the doctrines that are uniquely found (or "clarified") in the Book of Abraham are more emphasized in the Church today than those in the Book of Mormon (which, for the most part, mirror those found in the Bible).

For the current Church position on the papyri, the Pearl of Great Price student manual for the college-level CES courses provide the most thorough statement:

The Pearl of Great Price CES Manual (click "The Book of Abraham")

Why Did the Prophet Joseph Smith Say He Translated the Writings of Abraham When the Manuscripts Do Not Date to Abraham’s Time?

In 1966 eleven fragments of papyri once possessed by the Prophet Joseph Smith were discovered in the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. They were given to the Church and have been analyzed by scholars who date them between about 100 B.C. and A.D. 100. A common objection to the authenticity of the book of Abraham is that the manuscripts are not old enough to have been written by Abraham, who lived almost two thousand years before Christ. Joseph Smith never claimed that the papyri were autographic (written by Abraham himself), nor that they dated from the time of Abraham. It is common to refer to an author’s works as “his” writings, whether he penned them himself, dictated them to others, or others copied his writings later.

What Did the Prophet Joseph Smith Do with His Translation?

The book of Abraham was originally published a few excerpts at a time in Times and Seasons, a Church publication, beginning in March 1842 at Nauvoo, Illinois (see Introductory Note at the beginning of the Pearl of Great Price). The Prophet Joseph Smith indicated that he would publish more of the book of Abraham later, but he was martyred before he was able to do so. Concerning the potential length of the completed translation, Oliver Cowdery once said that “volumes” would be necessary to contain it (see Messenger and Advocate, Dec. 1835, 236).

In addition to hieroglyphic writings, the manuscript also contained Egyptian drawings. On 23 February 1842, the Prophet Joseph Smith asked Reuben Hedlock, a professional wood engraver and member of the Church, to prepare woodcuts of three of those drawings so they could be printed. Hedlock finished the engravings in one week, and Joseph Smith published the copies (facsimiles) along with the book of Abraham. Joseph Smith’s explanations of the drawings accompany the facsimiles.

What Happened to the Mummies and the Papyri?

After the death of the Prophet Joseph Smith, the four mummies and the papyri became the property of Joseph’s widowed mother, Lucy Mack Smith. At Lucy’s death in 1856, Emma Smith, the Prophet’s wife, sold the collection to Mr. A. Combs. Several theories have been offered regarding what happened subsequently to the mummies and the papyri. It appears that at least two of the mummies were burned in the great Chicago fire of 1871 (see B. H. Roberts, New Witnesses for God, 3 vols. [1909–11], 2:380–382).
turning over papyri

In the early spring of 1966, Dr. Aziz S. Atiya, a University of Utah professor, discovered several fragments of the book of Abraham papyri while doing research at the Metropolitan Museum of Art in New York City. These fragments were presented to the Church by the director of the museum on 27 November 1967. The current whereabouts of the other mummies and the other portions of the papyri are unknown (see H. Donl Peterson, “Some Joseph Smith Papyri Rediscovered (1967)” in Studies in Scripture, Volume Two, 183–85).
_cinepro
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Re: Egypt wants all their antiques back

Post by _cinepro »

Chapter 14 of the CES Manual "Church History in the Fulness of Times" has this interesting anecdote regarding the translation:

Developments in Scripture

In a tomb on the west bank of the Nile River across from the ancient Egyptian city of Thebes (now called Luxor), Antonio Lebolo, a French-speaking explorer from the Piedmont (a region of northwestern Italy), discovered several mummies and along with them some papyrus scrolls. Following the death of Lebolo in 1830, the mummies and papyri were shipped to the United States, where Michael H. Chandler, who identified himself as Lebolo’s nephew, came into possession of them in 1833. In 1835 Chandler displayed his artifacts in several eastern cities.

When he came to Kirtland at the end of June, the Saints showed great interest in the mummies and papyri. Chandler had heard that Joseph Smith claimed he could translate ancient records. He asked Joseph if he could translate the papyri. Orson Pratt recalled, “The Prophet took them and repaired to his room and inquired of the Lord concerning them. The Lord told him they were sacred records” and revealed the translation of some of the characters.20 Chandler had previously submitted a few characters from the records to scholars in order to determine their probable meaning. Upon receiving the Prophet’s translation, he provided a signed testimonial that it corresponded “in the most minute matters” with those of the scholars.21

Greatly interested in their content, the Saints purchased the mummies and scrolls for twenty-four hundred dollars. Joseph immediately began working with the scrolls and found that they contained the writings of Abraham and the writings of Joseph who was sold into Egypt. “Truly we can say, the Lord is beginning to reveal the abundance of peace and truth.”22 During the rest of his time in Kirtland he maintained an active interest in working with these ancient writings. The fruit of his efforts, the book of Abraham, was not printed, however, until 1842 after more translating was completed in Nauvoo. In February 1843 the Prophet promised to supply more of the translation of the book of Abraham, but his demanding schedule did not allow him time to complete the work before he was assassinated.
_solomarineris
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Re: Egypt wants all their antiques back

Post by _solomarineris »

"cinepro"]Honestly, what difference would it make if the Church gave up the papyrus?


Why shouldn't the we bend over while Egyptians asking for everything?
They should kiss my A** first. This people lived in ignorance over five thousand years
while chopping heads.
Should we empty out British Museum & Louvre too while we're at it?
Fu**ing, disgusting, ignorant masses swear & plot for your death...
That's 70% of Middle East for ya.
They use weasels like DCP.
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