Peterson Pace - "Those who can, do ....."

[_why me]

A quick glance suggests that, if antishock8's statistics are to be believed, Muslim Tajikistan and Kazakhstan have higher literacy rates than does the United States;

The Soviet Union was responsible for educating muslim women and girls in the soviet republics that could be considered Islamic. Now that the soviet union has collapsed, muslim girls are again beginning to suffer from a lack of education. Likewise in Afghanistan. When the communists took over in the late 1970's they made it a priority to educate the girls and women. But with united states assistance, the communists were overthrown and replaced by the taliban with terrible results for the female population.

[_Daniel Peterson]

You overgeneralize, antishock8.

Some Muslim societies are more oppressive to women than others are.

During my experience in Egypt, roughly half of the physicians I encountered were women. When I visited Iran, the person managing the academic conference I was attending was a (very outspoken) woman. I know many female professors and professionals in the Islamic world. Women in Iran (and elsewhere) serve in parliament, work as lawyers, etc. I'll be going over to Jordan later this year at the invitation of a good friend, a cabinet minister, by the name of Hala Latouf -- an extraordinarily impressive, highly educated woman.

For one of the most impressive women in the world at the current time, see http://www.mozahbintnasser.qa/output/page2.asp .

Is the Islamic world a feminist utopia? No. Only Harmony and solomarinated entertain that thought. Does it refute me in any way that the Islamic world isn't a feminist utopia? No. I've never suggested such a thing. Is the Islamic world uniformly opposed to the education of women? Not by a long shot. Does it penalize women's education? No. And those, it must not be forgotten, were the points to which I was responding. I will not defend straw man caricatures of my position; I'm not responsible for them.

He knows very well that degradation, subjugation of women has deep roots in Islam. Even before Mohammedwomen had pitiful existence but Islam basically eliminated all hopes for gender equity.

Before Islam, women in Arabian society were treated as chattel, and could even be inherited. The Qur’an gave them rights to divorce, to inherit, to testify on certain legal issues, and so forth.

Here, incidentally, is one Muslim woman's brief take on the subject of women's education and Islam:

Women Rights in Islam Regarding Education

The Qur'an and Hadiths of the Prophet both obligate Muslim men and women to acquire knowledge and education. It is a duty for every Muslim. For example, concerning knowledge and education the Qur'an Sura 35 Verse 28 states:
Those truly fear Allah, among His Servants, who have knowledge.

Prophet's Hadiths repeatedly emphasizes the acquirement of education and knowledge for every Muslim male and female. For example, one Hadith states that, " Seeking knowledge is a duty of every Muslim, man or woman." (Ayisha Lemu 1978: 25). Another Hadith states, " Seek knowledge from the cradle to grave." (1978:25). Another Hadith states that, " The Father, if he educates his daughter well, will enter Paradise." (The World Bank Report July 9, 1993: 25). Yet another Hadith states that, " A mother is a school. If she is educated, then a whole people are educated" (1993: 25).

In early of Islamic history there were many women scholars who had very significant roles in the Islamic world. For example Ayisha, the Prophet's wife was one of the most famous Muslim scholars. Not only was she very intelligent, she had an exceptional memory. That is why she was considered one of the most important sources of Hadith. It has been stated in some Islamic reports that the Prophet told the Muslims to go to Ayisha for guidance and learning of religious duties. The Prophet also told the Muslims to trust Ayisha's teaching and guidance( Lemu 1978:: 251).

In the Islamic world, at the beginning of Islam, there were no restrictions or prohibitions toward women to seek knowledge and education. There were many women scholars in the fields of religion, literature, music, education, and medicine. For example, a woman named Nafisa who was related to Ali, the fourth Khalif, had a vast knowledge of and was an expert on the Hadiths of the Prophet. Many famous Muslim scholars of the time, such as Imam Shafi'i would participate in Nafisa's scholarly discourse and learn from her (1978: 251-253).

[_Daniel Peterson]

The Soviet Union was responsible for educating muslim women and girls in the soviet republics that could be considered Islamic. Now that the soviet union has collapsed, muslim girls are again beginning to suffer from a lack of education. Likewise in Afghanistan. When the communists took over in the late 1970's they made it a priority to educate the girls and women. But with united states assistance, the communists were overthrown and replaced by the taliban with terrible results for the female population.

You see, Harmony? As I've been saying, the Islamic world is not a feminist utopia. Some parts of it, in fact, are pretty bad for women.

So please stop suggesting that the Islamic world is a feminist utopia, Harmony. And tell solomarinated that he should stop it, too.

And I've got to cut back, too. I've got other things to do. Besides, I suspect that poor Count Joey is having a hard time keeping up. He's running out of saliva from wetting his counting finger, and his toes are getting blistered from overuse.

[_harmony]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Daniel.

Afghanistan, by whatever faction is in control in any given moment on any given acre of land, has a 23% literacy rate for women. According to the same source, http://www.afghan-web.com/woman/, 30% of girls have access to education. That obviously translates to something different from what you've presented here.

Unless, of course, you're saying you know more about Afghan women than they know themselves.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Whatever helps you sleep at night, Daniel.

The truth helps me sleep at night, Harmony. You should try it sometime.

Afghanistan, by whatever faction is in control in any given moment on any given acre of land, has a 23% literacy rate for women. According to the same source, http://www.afghan-web.com/woman/, 30% of girls have access to education. That obviously translates to something different from what you've presented here.

It doesn't at all.

I've repeatedly said that conditions for women in Afghanistan are very poor.

Afghanistan is an exceedingly poor, remote, and backward country, with an unspeakably difficult terrain. Like all such countries, rates of literacy for both men and women are very, very low. Like the overwhelming majority of such countries, both Islamic and non-Islamic, men have a higher rate of literacy than women (though the literacy rate isn't very high for men, either, which probably contributes to the problem for women). The form of Islam dominant in this very poor and backward country reinforces the patriarchal character already present, especially in rural areas.

But, once again, this doesn't mean that Islam as such opposes the education of women, let alone that Islam as such punishes the education of women. And those, it will be recalled, were the initial claims -- to which I responded.

Unless, of course, you're saying you know more about Afghan women than they know themselves.

Please don't pretend to be conversing with me when you're really not, okay? It wastes your time and it wastes mine.

[_harmony]

I've repeatedly said that conditions for women in Afghanistan are very poor.

and then the implied "but..."

Afghanistan is an exceedingly poor, remote, and backward country, with an unspeakably difficult terrain. Like all such countries, rates of literacy for both men and women are very, very low. Like the overwhelming majority of such countries, both Islamic and non-Islamic, men have a higher rate of literacy than women (though the literacy rate isn't very high for men, either, which probably contributes to the problem for women). The form of Islam dominant in this very poor and backward country reinforces the patriarchal character already present, especially in rural areas.

So you're saying that Islam has nothing nothing to do with the state of education for women in Afghanistan. Because from what I can see, Afghanistan is 99% Muslim. (source: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_by_country)

So surely they have a HUGE influence on education. No matter how you slice it, Islam rules Afghanistan, just like Christianity rules here.

But, once again, this doesn't mean that Islam as such opposes the education of women, let alone that Islam as such punishes the education of women. And those, it will be recalled, were the initial claims -- to which I responded.

See this, Daniel? I posted it above, but I don't think you saw it:

The recently adopted Afghan constitution states that "the citizens of Afghanistan - whether man or woman- have equal rights and duties before the law". So far, women have been allowed to return back to work, the government no longer forces them to wear the all covering burqa, and they even have been appointed to prominent positions in the government. Despite all these changes many challenges still remain. The repression of women is still prevalent in rural areas where many families still restrict their own mothers, daughters, wives and sisters from participation in public life. They are still forced into marriages and denied a basic education. Numerous school for girls have been burned down and little girls have even been poisoned to death for daring to go to school.

source: http://www.afghan-web.com/woman/

So... "poisoned to death" doesn't count as punishes? "denied basic education" doesn't count as opposes? What does punishes mean to you? Does poisoned mean punished? What does opposes mean to you? Does denied mean opposed?

Please don't pretend to be conversing with me when you're really not, okay?

Only you, Daniel. Only you.

[_Daniel Peterson]

and then the implied "but..."

That's right. Because Islam is far and away from the only factor relevant to the situation, and, even when granted that it's a factor, it isn't a factor in a straightforward and simple way.

This is simple logic, Harmony. (Don't flee at the word logic. Hear me out.)

If x is present in A, B, and C, yet only C manifests y, x cannot be the simple cause of y. If it were, y would be present in A and B as well as C, since x is present in all three.

Prejudice against women's education is present in rural villages in Afghanistan, but not in the government at Kabul. It's present in rural Afghan villages, yet it isn't present in Iran. But all of these are Muslim. Therefore, Islam is not the sole salient factor, in any simple way.

That's what I've been saying, Harmony. That's what I've said several times. Hence the but.

Afghanistan is an exceedingly poor, remote, and backward country, with an unspeakably difficult terrain. Like all such countries, rates of literacy for both men and women are very, very low. Like the overwhelming majority of such countries, both Islamic and non-Islamic, men have a higher rate of literacy than women (though the literacy rate isn't very high for men, either, which probably contributes to the problem for women). The form of Islam dominant in this very poor and backward country reinforces the patriarchal character already present, especially in rural areas.

So you're saying that Islam has nothing nothing to do with the state of education for women in Afghanistan.

How you can get that even from the paragraph from me that you just quoted, is utterly mysterious to me. What part of "The form of Islam dominant in this very poor and backward country reinforces the patriarchal character already present, especially in rural areas," do you find most completely mysterious and baffling?

Because from what I can see, Afghanistan is 99% Muslim.

Is it even possible to have a real conversation with you?

So surely they have a HUGE influence on education. No matter how you slice it, Islam rules Afghanistan, just like Christianity rules here.

And Islam rules the Afghan central government in Kabul, which is committed to women's education. And Islam rules Saudi King Abdullah, who is, as I've pointed out, funding a fully coeducational university with his own money. And Islam rules the Gulf states, where several women's universities are up and running. (A good friend of mine is the president of one of them.) And Islam rules Egypt, where the universities are coeducational. And so on and so forth. (I've mentioned all of these things before, but, since you're plainly not paying even the slightest attention, it was manifestly futile to do so.)

So... "poisoned to death" doesn't count as punishes? "denied basic education" doesn't count as opposes? What does punishes mean to you? Does poisoned mean punished? What does opposes mean to you? Does denied mean opposed?

Sigh. The question is whether Islam, as such, opposes or even punishes education for women. Is the subject of those sentences, the agent who "poisons" and "denies," Islam as such? Please, please try to follow the argument. Please try to remember that the government in Kabul, which you yourself say wants to educate women, is just as Muslim as rural Afghanistan is. Remember, as you yourself have pointed out, that Afghanistan is 99% Muslim. Hamid Karzai, the leader of Afghanistan, is a Muslim. His minister of education is a Muslim. The teachers who teach Afghan girls in Afghan schools are Muslims.

Please don't pretend to be conversing with me when you're really not, okay?

Did you read the item above that I posted from a Muslim woman, about Islam and the education of women? If you read it, did you pay any attention?

[_Chap]

Remember, as you yourself have pointed out, that Afghanistan is 99% Muslim. Hamid Karzai, the leader of Afghanistan, is a Muslim. His minister of education is a Muslim. The teachers who teach Afghan girls in Afghan schools are Muslims.

I wonder what we actually know about the private religious beliefs of people who live in a country like Afghanistan, where it would take an act of foolhardy personal bravery to say this sentence in public:

"Although my parents brought me up as a Muslim, once I had the ability to think for myself I realised that I just didn't believe in it anymore."

[_Mister Scratch]

And those, it must be remembered, were the suggestions, respectively, of Harmony and Scratch to which I've responded.

Do you mean **Shades**, Prof. P.? Gee, you're not obsessed or anything... are you?

by the way: I noticed that you've avoided the Ziggurat thread like the plague. I would imagine that you are still reeling after having callously thrown a colleague under the bus. See: this is what happens when your ferocious Mopologetic ambitions are/were allowed to run amok---you get too emotional and sloppy with your words.

[_Daniel Peterson]

Do you mean **Shades**, Prof. P.? Gee, you're not obsessed or anything... are you?

Substantive as ever! Focused like a laser on serious issues. LOL.

But no, don't flatter yourself.

by the way: I noticed that you've avoided the Ziggurat thread like the plague. I would imagine that you are still reeling after having callously thrown a colleague under the bus. See: this is what happens when your ferocious Mopologetic ambitions are/were allowed to run amok---you get too emotional and sloppy with your words

Funny. You fantasize that I'm obsessed with you, and then you complain that I've been ignoring you. Make up your mind.

I told you that you'd get at most one opportunity per day to conduct your Scratchoscopies. You didn't ask any even minimally good questions after that, so I haven't bothered with your silly little thread any more.

And guess what? It's my night for bishop's interviews. So I won't be here for your bizarre probing tonight, either. Tough luck.