Plan of Salvation-Progression through Kingdoms

[_Yoda]

Wow!

I really appreciate everyone's responses on this. I'm glad I'm not the only one who really pondered this topic.

You all have given me some things to think about. I can't tell you how comforting it is just to be able to discuss this with others who don't immediately bristle, or call me a heathen for questioning some of this.

One thing that Seven said really struck me:

As parents, we love our children unconditionally. I believe that is how God loves us too.

This is exactly how I feel, which is why the concept of ending up relegated to a kingdom without an opportunity to move beyond it, or to be with family, just didn't make sense to me.

[_Daniel Peterson]

I tend cautiously toward universalism, and expect that there is probably progression through the kingdoms -- though I can't prove it.

I'm very fond of a response of the late Pope John Paul II to the question "Are Catholics obliged to believe in Hell?"

"Yes," replied. "But we can hope that it will be empty."





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[_Yoda]

I tend cautiously toward universalism, and expect that there is probably progression through the kingdoms -- though I can't prove it.

I'm very fond of a response of the late Pope John Paul II to the question "Are Catholics obliged to believe in Hell?"

"Yes," replied. "But we can hope that it will be empty."





.

I LOVE this quote!

Thank you, Dan! Your words are very comforting.

[_Black Moclips]

BlackMoclips,

Thanks for the link. Extremely fascinating. Chapter 3, particularly the interviewing of children, birthmarks and other cultures beliefs on reincarnation (this is as far as I've read to this point). I'm going to order a book or two by Ian Stevenson. I've read a few of Kenneth Ring's and find them quite thought provoking.

One thing that disturbs me is that JJ is still somehow trying to mingle the information to tie into obscure Mormon or even Christian doctrine - as if there just must be a solid link between the belief systems.

I have a question, where does one look to find a legitimate, experienced hynotheropist that deals in such areas as past life regression?

Hi Inconceivable. I'm glad you find the article interesting. I've also read a couple of books on past life regression. I think one was called Children Who Remember Past Lives, and another one called Many Lives, Many Masters. I find the topic fascinating, and Ian Stevenson seems to the most cited and referenced, having done the most research. Some cases are stronger than others, but its very interesting to read.

If you read enough of JJ's articles and books, you can see that he really isn't pushing or advocating Christianity as we would typically think of it. He explains that the man Joshua/Jesus, was overshadowed by an entity called The Christ. A righteous version of a demonic possession I guess you would call it, and this is what Jesus called The Father (He is in me, we are one, etc etc). Interesting to go back and read the new testament with that in mind. However, Jesus was just the latest incarnation of the same spirit who has incarnated many times starting with out with the most recent Adam in the Bible. But the forces of light have worked with all people and all religions throughout history. He gives as much weight to the writings of Budha and eastern religions as he does to Jesus's teachings. In fact, the eastern religions have much more detailed principles about spirituality and metaphysical topics. This makes sense to me, that if there really is a God, he is influencing many religions, thought forms, and independent groups.

Anyway, I don't do the explanations justice. I'm just a babe when considering such things. But I recommend you read the 4 books in The Immortal series. Plus, since JJ was a Mormon, there are a few other articles that blend in some of the church's early teachings. He does believe in what Joseph started and attempted to do - a break from traditional religion and dogma into a new movement with freedom of thought and direct a link to God - everyone a prophet. However, that changed as the church grew in size, structure, and the heirarchy and authority took over. The LDS church now is just as dogmatic as the protestant movements it was trying to break from in the beginning.

Here is a parable from the Immortal that I like sharing:

John continued. "Listen carefully to this parable and write it down in your own words after I leave. You will publish it later and it will be an inspiration to many. If you sense the Spirit in the words you will guess where it originated."

"On a certain night Jim, Mike, Ron and Dave died. Shortly thereafter they all found themselves walking on a beaten path. It seemed right to follow the path. Finally they came to a dividing point. One path veered to the left; the other to the right. They stood a moment, pondering what to do, when suddenly a man in white appeared and gave them instructions.

"Welcome, my friends', he said. 'You are approaching your new home and I am here to instruct you as much as is permitted. You notice there are two paths before you: One of them takes you to Heaven, a place more beautiful than you can imagine. The other takes you to Hell, a land full of darkness, despair and wretched individuals. All I can tell you at this point is you are to choose a path, but once you reach your destination you cannot turn back. Once you get to Heaven you will stay there, or once you get to Hell you will stay there. One more word I can say. Do not be frightened, for that reward you get in the end will be that which you deserve. Go forth confident that if you have led a just life, you will reap as you have sowed. You must proceed one at a time and each walk the path alone.'

"After saying this the man disappeared. The four were astonished at this somewhat random method of reaching Heaven or Hell. Finally, they decided they must go forward and drew straws to determine who would go first. Jim got the first opportunity and chose the path on the right. He thought that perhaps this would lead to heaven because the "right" is always associated with "good." But as he proceeded he heard the fierce sound of wild animals, clouds seemed to hide the sun and the earth seemed to shake. He became very frightened and thought, 'Maybe I have chosen the wrong path.' He turned around, went back to the beginning and told the others of his experience. Then he decided to try the left hand path. As he ventured forth he saw more ominous signs. He kept wondering how far he could go before he could not turn back, and with each step he became more and more frightened until he was forced to retreat back to the beginning.

"Seeing that Jim could not make a firm decision as to which path to take, Ron and Dave suggested Mike now take his turn. Mike, however, was paralyzed with fear for, according to Jim's story, neither path sounded very heavenly. 'I'm going to think about it a while', he said. 'Someone else can take a turn.'

"It was now Ron's turn and he said, 'I'm picking the right-hand path and not turning back.' He followed through with his decision, and went past the sound of wild animals and through the darkness and storm clouds until he found himself in a place of unspeakable beauty and peace. He assumed he was in Heaven and rested there.

"It was now Dave's turn to move onward. Jim said he thought he heard a wild animal eating Ron and a chill of concern spread through them all. Dave was not sure he was making the right decision, for he chose the path on the left. He thought within himself: 'No matter what happens I'll go forward on this path and make the best of it.'

"As he proceeded, things went from bad to worse. There were horrific shrieks from wild animals and storm clouds with fierce thunderbolts were everywhere. Still, he proceeded until he reached a sign that said 'Hell''. Behind him, the path disappeared and there was no retreat. Before him was a depressing place dark and stormy, full of inhabitants living in run- down shacks. The people lived in constant fear of attacks from the animals and roaming gangs which stole whatever they could get their hands on. Everywhere he went he was told this was a land cursed by the devil, and that things are going to get worse for all eternity.

"Dave thought long and hard within himself. 'I promised myself I would not retreat from this path and make the best of it. I refuse to listen to these voices of doom. Within myself there is no Hell and my conscience is clear, so why should there be Hell on the outside?''

"From that point on, Dave went forth in confidence and taught the people they did not have to live in the run-down shacks, and that they could change their circumstances so they would not have to live in fear. He also questioned their belief the land was cursed by the devil. A handful of people took hope and listened, but the rest were afraid and even looked upon Dave as an enemy, fearing he would make things even worse than they were.

"Dave gathered the people who would listen. They refused to accept the slum they were given as a final resting place and made blueprints of new beautiful homes. The best land they could find was an uninhabited swamp. They drained it and built their homes and a beautiful city with teeming gardens and landscapes. The gangs did not bother them, for the inhabitants supported and protected each other. The wild animals became friends, for the people nurtured them. Even the dark clouds and storms began to subside and bright, sunny days became a common sight.

"The people who were against Dave saw what had been accomplished and they took courage; one by one, other parts of Hell became transformed into beautiful cities and landscapes. After a period of time there was nothing but beauty and peace as far as the eye could see.

"Dave surveyed the now-beautiful land and came to a realization: One more thing needs to be done. He walked over to the original entrance and found that old sign which read 'Hell', tore it down, and replaced it with one that said 'Heaven'. As he did, another path with a fork in it appeared and so did the man in white. His look caught Dave's eye and he said, 'I think you know what you must do'.

"Dave looked back and said, 'I see I must choose again'.

"'Correct'. said the man.

"Before I proceed, can you tell me the fate of the other three?'

"The man answered: 'Ron is in a city that resembles the place you have created. He has one regret: he wishes he had a part in creating it. When that desire becomes strong enough he will be given another path to choose and will wind up in a place called 'Hell'. as you did, and be given an opportunity to build Heaven.

"Jim and Mike are still paralyzed with fear, afraid to make a decision. They are the ones who are truly in Hell, yet sooner or later they must proceed onward.

"And what lies ahead for me?' asked Dave.

"The unknown', said the man.

"The statement made Dave afraid, yet excited at the same time. And with no hesitation, he proceeded on the path leaning to the right."



No one spoke for a moment. "That's a beautiful story," Elizabeth said, her eyes glistening through tears. "I'd better help my husband remember it."

"That's an excellent thought," said John. "Now the first step to solving the first key is to find the first keyword. The first keyword is the title of the parable and also the power that put the pen in motion. The second stage of the first key is in your understanding. You must show a degree of comprehension about the key."

Suddenly it seemed as if a light turned on in my head. "I have the word!" I exclaimed. "I can't believe I never thought of it before, but I'm sure I am right this time."

"You'll have to wait another week to give it to me," said John.

"You don't know what you ask here," I said. "Now that I have the word I want to talk about it."

"If you are correct you will gain much by contemplating the full meaning of the word and principle during the next week."

"I feel strongly in my bones I am correct. I am just anxious to be verified."

"A week is a very short period," John said patiently.

"Where will we meet next Thursday?" I asked anxiously.

"Denny's, unless there is a change of plans. There, we will discuss the beginning of your mission."

"Now you're making my wait worse than ever. You've mentioned a mission before. Exactly what do you have in mind for me?" I asked anxiously.

"It is more what Joshua has in mind. He has a plan to reveal new teachings to the world, and you, my friend, are a part of that plan."

"Now you really have me stimulated! Why don't you just stay here for three days and answer all my questions?" I felt like a kid on Christmas Eve begging to open presents early.

"At this moment, my time available is limited. Maybe we can spend three days together when Joshua can let me go for a while. In the meantime, happy contemplating until next week." John started walking toward the front door.

"Let me ask you one more question before you go," I requested.

"Go ahead," said John, turning around.......

[_Seven]

One thing that Seven said really struck me:

As parents, we love our children unconditionally. I believe that is how God loves us too.

This is exactly how I feel, which is why the concept of ending up relegated to a kingdom without an opportunity to move beyond it, or to be with family, just didn't make sense to me.

I can remember back to those lessons in Primary on the three kingdoms and questioning them as a child. It would give me a sick feeling inside to learn that my Father in Heaven would banish his children for eternity in any kingdom or place with no chance to repent and progress. It also instilled some fear into me that I better be a good girl or I might never see my family again.
It made no sense from an eternal perspective for God to put such a short deadline on repentance. It also doesn't mesh with the unconditional love we immediately feel for our own children that God? gives us, and the story of the Prodigal son.

I do understand why we will be separated from God and in misery from our sins if we do not repent and accept Christ's atoning sacrifice, and this is the hell or "spirit prison" we can be in. Where I disagree with "Mormon doctrine" is on a final judgment. The door should always be open for Heavenly Fathers children to return home when they meet the conditions of the atonement just as mine would be for my own children if they repented of their crimes.

I'm a bit of a skeptic when people tell me they've had visits from spirits who have passed on but I will still share this story. I have a friend whose Mormon relative lived a very sinful life and was a miserable man. He appeared to her sometime after his death and let her know that he was in a wonderful place with his family and testified of Christ. He radiated happiness and peace, she said. I can't recall what else he told her but I specifically asked her if anything was said that could verify "the true church" and there wasn't.

This story gives her a testimony that there is a chance for repentance & progression beyond the veil.

[_cinepro]

It doesn't make sense to me that an individual could be dammed forever either.

That's really what it comes down to. We have to believe that there would be a point in existence where God would say "OK, now we're not going to have any repentance or learning or growth. You're stuck in this spot for the rest of eternity."

If God's purpose it truly to "bring to pass the immortality and eternal life of man", that is the opposite of what we would expect.

The "final judgment" scenario would imply that God's purpose is really "to place his children into different categories after which they will have no opportunity to learn or grow for the rest of eternity".

[_Inconceivable]

BlackMoclips,

The parable gave me something to ponder all day today. Thanks. It's a great perspective.

The Mormon God would do well to push this concept than His inevitable Armegedden scenario. When I think of Him, it always seems like a million hollow threats and then a fit of rage.

some random thoughts:

I'm amused that some would reference J Smith and Eliza Snow as believing in reincarnation. It flies in the face of everything that his temple and it's ordinances represent.

Think about it. How many times does a reincarnated person need to be baptised posthumously? Sealings to a spouse and children make no conceivable sense at all. But what in the world would old Mormon people do with their twilight years if there was no temple work?

I got a chance to watch a pile of episodes of the Highlander series on Hulu this last week. I find them inspiring and thought provoking so far as the human nature element goes. I'm intrigued by the notion of actually walking in someone else's moccasins or actually being that person through various ages.

If wisdom and understanding is what we seek in order to develop charity toward our fellowmen it would seem reasonable that we really need to be present for a nearly innumerable amount of experiences.

7 Wisdom is the principal thing; therefore get wisdom: and with all thy getting get understanding.

(Old Testament | Proverbs 4:7)

I would argue that wisdom and understanding come down to the concept of love. The wiser we are the more we emulate it:

2 ..but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is.
3 And every man that hath this hope in him purifieth himself, even as he is pure.

(New Testament | 1 John 3:2 - 3)

[_Black Moclips]

I'm amused that some would reference J Smith and Eliza Snow as believing in reincarnation. It flies in the face of everything that his temple and it's ordinances represent.

Think about it. How many times does a reincarnated person need to be baptised posthumously? Sealings to a spouse and children make no conceivable sense at all. But what in the world would old Mormon people do with their twilight years if there was no temple work?

I'm glad you enjoyed the story. With respect to temple work, I don't think reincarnation flies in the face of everything it stands for, especially given Brigham Young's veil discussion wherein it talks about Adam and Eve being exalted previously and coming to this earth to be mortal again. In fact, in the D&C, when talking about those in the Celestial Kingdom, it says that "All things are theirs, whether life or death". What does that mean? That they can choose to be subject to death again? Another explanation is that the temple serves to bind individuals again in future lifetimes. For example, in the book Many Lives, Many Masters, the main woman in the story relates her previous lifetimes. In most of the lifetimes, she recognized several family members and friends were also present. For example, a close family friend was sometimes her father, sometimes her husband for example. Sometimes she didn't recognize anyone.

I honestly think that temple worship today is 99% for the living. Who knows what Joseph was really planning, and what the ordinances would be like today had he lived longer.

I got a chance to watch a pile of episodes of the Highlander series on Hulu this last week. I find them inspiring and thought provoking so far as the human nature element goes. I'm intrigued by the notion of actually walking in someone else's moccasins or actually being that person through various ages.

I used to love that show and Adrian Paul was my hero. "In the end, there can be only one. May it be Duncan McCloud, The Highlander ...enter rocking Queen music...

If wisdom and understanding is what we seek in order to develop charity toward our fellowmen it would seem reasonable that we really need to be present for a nearly innumerable amount of experiences.

I completely agree.

Another thing I find interesting about reincarnation, as discussed by JJ, is the concept of how it explains homosexuality. He teaches that every soul goes through cycles of male and female, alternating between the two (I think I remember him saying in groups of seven lifetimes). This actually makes some sense to me. How can God, if he is strictly male, ever comprehend or understand the role of womanhood if he has always been male? Anyway, someone who is homo-sexual is simply experiencing residual effects of their previous lifetime as the opposite gender, one that was particularly strong for some reason.

Like I've said, I don't know if any of this is true and its all speculation. However, as I challenge the standard Plan of Salvation I've always been taught and explore what makes more sense and resonates with me, these ideas come to the forefront. The feel good for some reason.

[Guest]

I'm amused that some would reference J Smith and Eliza Snow as believing in reincarnation. It flies in the face of everything that his temple and it's ordinances represent.

Think about it. How many times does a reincarnated person need to be baptised posthumously? Sealings to a spouse and children make no conceivable sense at all. But what in the world would old Mormon people do with their twilight years if there was no temple work?

..I don't think reincarnation flies in the face of everything it stands for, especially given Brigham Young's veil discussion wherein it talks about Adam and Eve being exalted previously and coming to this earth to be mortal again.

..Another explanation is that the temple serves to bind individuals again in future lifetimes.

I honestly think that temple worship today is 99% for the living. Who knows what Joseph was really planning, and what the ordinances would be like today had he lived longer.

If we take one non-doctrinal quote from BY, then we should probably consider all of the others. The guy was an infidel that has never been given credit for even one currently held Mormon doctrine - not even polygamy. I don't think he ever had any idea what he was talking about (quakers on the moon, reference to blacks, principals of divorcement, blood atonement..). I'd submit he was influenced more by the effects of various Venerial Diseases than inspiration from God.

When we refer to vicarious work for the dead (and reincarnation at the same time), imagine binding a family where the father or grandfather molested his children. Considering the concept of reincarnation, what right does a mortal have to bind such families posthumously, unaware of the destructive nature of one of it's family members? Why would we want to take a chance and perpetuate a violation of this nature when we know that, at least in mortality, pedaphiles are incurable?

No. The temple quackery is what it is. It's to chain entire clans and families all the way back to adam (the primary purpose for the final millenium is to complete the chain). It isn't about putting innumerable chains around the same people. Even chaining a family back to adam really makes no sense. Particularly, according to Smith, everyone can win anyway (see the quote on page 1 of this thread).

In my opinion, the whole concept of Mormon temple ordinances originated through Smith's attempt to justify his extramarital behavior before those that would have rather chosen fidelity in marriage.

[_ludwigm]

One thing that Seven said really struck me:

As parents, we love our children unconditionally. I believe that is how God loves us too.

This is exactly how I feel ...

I feel the same.

Our feeling is wrong. It was defined officially.

The word "unconditional" does not appear in the scriptures, says this grinning man below, Russell M. Nelson (of the Quorum of the Twelve Apostles), in “Divine Love,” Ensign, Feb 2003, 20. While divine love can be called perfect, infinite, enduring, and universal, it cannot correctly be characterized as unconditional.

See http://www.LDS.org/ldsorg/v/index.jsp?v ... &hideNav=1 for details.

Apparently we (incorrect individuals) want to be better than the Mormon god.