Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_why me]

by the way, if the LDS church had not given up polygamy, they likely would have been destroyed in some fashion or the other – just like many of these other groups. So it wasn’t Joseph Smith’s behavior that allowed the LDS church to be differentiated from these other groups, but later leaders who were willing to alter what Smith had instituted in order to survive.

I did not change focus at all. To compare Joseph Smith to Koresh is wrong and unsupportable. That was my point. Now I know that it makes critics feel good but that still doesn't make the comparison true. I demonstrated that the branch davidians and the LDS are different. I see many LDS churches but I see no branch davidian churches. The end climax was a tad different.

[_harmony]

To compare Joseph Smith to Koresh is wrong and unsupportable. That was my point. Now I know that it makes critics feel good but that still doesn't make the comparison true. I demonstrated that the branch davidians and the LDS are different. I see many LDS churches but I see no branch davidian churches. The end climax was a tad different.

Are you being deliberately obtuse, or do you just not get it, Whyme?

The comparison isn't between the LDS church and the Branch Davidians. It's between Joseph Smith and David Koresh. Had the LDS church been left in to the tender mercies of Joseph Smith, I have no doubt it would simply be a footnote in history now, much like the Branch Davidians.

Here's the applicable comparison:

Joseph was a charismatic religious leader who gathered followers based on his ability to convince them he was right.

Koresh did the same thing.

Joseph was a sexual predator who found a way to convince several girls, single women, and married women to open their legs for him.

Koresh did the same thing.

Joseph was violently hated by his non-member neighbors.

Koresh had the same experience.

Joseph was killed by an angry mob.

Koresh was killed by an angry government.

Here's the difference:

Joseph had a succession plan in place (sorta).

Koresh had no succession plan.

Same outcome for the founders; different outcome for the churches.

[_Jason Bourne]

Can you honestly read this and not see the predicament a woman who fully believed Smith a prophet would not be in in the scenario. Do you not find the approach Joseph took full of duress for Lucy? Can you not see how this account really shows a man who very likely could have been taking advantage of the power, position and charisma he held over a female follower? DO you think this...

He then gave Lucy an ultimatum, “It is a command of God to you. I will give you untill to-morrow to decide this matter. If you reject this message the gate will be closed forever against you.”

However, I see no problem with it if we look at Joseph Smith as a prophet who had a mission to accomplish.

So it was ok to say to Lucy, "Look, God told me you have to be my wife, Emma is away, you have 24 hours to decide, otherwise forget it. And oh by the way this means you miss you chance to receive this thing you need to be in the best place in heaven."

Really this is essentially what he did. If God really told him why not give Lucy some time. Why not tell her he understands how hard this is and it could cause her doubts and fears. Why emphasize his position of power?

In the end, she did receive a powerful witness and if this witness was not given, she would have refused.

Oh you bet. Under duress. The mind can do funny things to someone in such a situation.

If Joseph Smith believed himself to be a prophet and he had a mission from God to fulfill, what should he have done? What would be more godly? To my understanding Lucy did just fine and had no problem with plural marriage.

It all depends what side of the fence one is standing. For those who don't consider him to be a prophet, it all smacks of abuse. But for those who do consider him to be a prophet, he had a mission to accomplish.

It smacks of abuse even if he was a prophet. I have no doubt you would not give anyone else such latitude. Take you need to preserve Joseph as a prophet of God. Look at it from an objective view point. Read the account as if you were not a Latter-day Saint or that you are investigating. Is there anyway you would view this account as you do now?

Do you see god always acting godly?

Well, yes. I think god should act Godly. Things that don't seem godly cause my to suspect whether they really are from God. Hence my conclusion that LDS polygamy was not from God. It was instituted in and ungodly way and seem to generate ungodly situations.

[_Jason Bourne]

Ray, is this a joke? I am sure that I can rely on the RLDS to tell the truth in this matter. Plus, I have no idea who this Marks fellow is but if he were a good friend of Emma, I can understand why he would write what he wrote if he wanted to remain a good friend of Emma

Marks was the stake president of the Nauvoo stake. He was close to Joseph Smith. In fact, there is a compelling argument that Marks as SP of the Nauvoo stake may have had a claim to succeed Joseph and become president of the Church. Quinn lays this out in his first volume on the Mormon Patriarchy and he uses the D&C to make the case. Also, if one view some of Brigham's actions towards Marks as well as calling Elders (under Marks direction) as 70s and thus putting them under Brigham's direction, as well as other things, it seems Brigham may have viewed Mark's as a threat.

Marks was an honest man and had a good reputation. I have no reason to believe he lied when he said Joseph was ready to do away with plural marriage.

[_Danna]

Ray and Danna;

I want to respond to your posts but I can't figure out entirely where you are pulling your material from, and what is original material, secondary material and secondary material with commentary. I know this isn't an academic journal where you have to carefully cite your material, but for each of your last posts perhaps you could indulge me with cites to your quoted material.

rcrocket

Sorry about that. You can find the original article and more here at Uncle Dale's:
http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UK/miscUK01.htm#080042
I have edited my original post to add the link.

[_Danna]

Why me, have you heard of Martha Brotherton? The story is here at Uncle Dale's place. Here are some extracts from the LDS Millennial Star August 1942:

Among the most conspicuous of these apostates, we would notice a young female who emigrated from Manchester in September last, and who, after conducting herself in a manner unworthy the character of one professing godliness, at length conceived the plan of gaining friendship and extraordinary notoriety with the world, or rather with the enemies of truth, by striking a blow at the character of some of its worthiest champions. She well knew that this would be received as a sweet morsel by her old friends, the Methodists, and other enemies of the Saints. She accordingly selected president J. Smith, and elder B. Young for her victims, and wrote to England that these men had been trying to seduce her, by making her believe that God had given a revelation that men might have two wives...

Sound familiar?

But, for the information of those who may be assailed by those foolish tales about the two wives, we would say that no such principle ever existed among the Latter-day Saints, and never will; this is well known to all who are acquainted with our books and actions, the Book of Mormon, Doctrine and Covenants; and also all our periodicals are very strict and explicit on that subject, indeed far more so than the Bible.

So who is slandering whom?

I have no problem with this. First, I am dealing with a newspaper report. Second, I have absolutely no idea what was transpiring at this time between the parties.

I think however that the secret needed to be kept and if this former sister was set to cause trouble, a defence needed to be set up. The LDS paper was read by other more troublesome people who formed mobs and would form mobs to oust the saints and murder Joseph.

Also, since two years later mobs would murder Joseph and Hyrum and at this time, mobs were burning the homes of the saints and murdering them and the tribuation was fierce, I can forgive the newspaper for what is inside it. I would have done no different.

So the woman is first cajoled, then threatened, to engage in an illegal (and societally immoral) act by leaders in a pastoral position. What we would call sexual harassment today, and gross abuse of authority.
She, very bravely, tells the truth and warns other young girls with the help of her parents.
She is vilified by the powerful men and organization that have been exposed.

And you think this is OK??? You would have done the same???

What would you have done with the young girl who exposed General Authority George P. Lee's attempt to set up a secret spiritual wife system? If I recall correctly he used the same reasoning and carried the same priesthood authority as many of the participants in the 1840s.

[_Danna]

Hi again Why me,

I believe that Rigdon's grandson's testimony is plausible and wonder if Will S will supply some insight as to why he so readily dismisses it.

Mary

It would all depend what kind of dog that grandson had in the fight. My guess would be that his dog was antimormon. And if so, he wanted to sour the Mormon church. But the son got the message on sidney's deathbed. Quite extraordinary for a religious fraudster to say on his deathbed.

That's the funny thing about deathbed revelations with only one witness. They can't be refuted. Reminds me of Emma's death bed visions.

[_why me]

That's the funny thing about deathbed revelations with only one witness. They can't be refuted. Reminds me of Emma's death bed visions.

I know, I had a good laugh, especially since it refutes the Rigdon theory you embrace.

[_why me]

So the woman is first cajoled, then threatened, to engage in an illegal (and societally immoral) act by leaders in a pastoral position. What we would call sexual harassment today, and gross abuse of authority.
She, very bravely, tells the truth and warns other young girls with the help of her parents.
She is vilified by the powerful men and organization that have been exposed.

Well, Martha has her story and the wives of Joseph Smith have their stories. Martha went to the outside world to shout out her story. She was no feeble creature. She knew what she was trying to accomplish with her sensationalism. And I have no idea if this all actually transpired between martha and leaders. I only have her word for it and probably the word of other disgruntled people around at that time.

But the wives of Joseph Smith paint a different picture and there are more of them. It seems that Joseph Smith was a good man who was missed by them when he was murdered. I still haven't heard a terrible word said of Joseph Smith by any of these women. If true, that does say a lot about their relationship.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me,

But the wives of Joseph Smith paint a different picture and there are more of them. It seems that Joseph Smith was a good man who was missed by them when he was murdered. I still haven't heard a terrible word said of Joseph Smith by any of these women. If true, that does say a lot about their relationship.

Ever hear the FLDS girls and women talk about Warren Jeffs?

See those little twelve and thirteen year old girls talk about their husband?

Where was God when Jesus was being tortured and crucified? Some things are just meant to be.

I don't recall Jesus lying, manipulating, coercing people during his crucifixion. Did I miss something?

Why would God require lies, coercion, "immorality" and cruelty to restore truth?

I suppose you are going with the, "God's ways are not man's ways"?

The point is, the justification that Joseph Smith HAD to lie, coerce, cheat, and act in such a despicable way is nonsense.

God could have stepped in and done a little miracle, Joseph Smith could have used his power to do something along the lines of parting the Red Sea, or the members could have prayed or received blessings or something to elicit divine help, if men were really required to have sex with all sorts of girls and women other than their actual wives.

Or, maybe, just maybe, Joseph Smith (like other powerful cult and religious leaders) didn't want people to know he was sleeping around with young girls and single and married women?