Mormonism's Greatest Downfall.

[_why me]

Hi Why Me,

It is all a matter of interpretation. I don't see Joseph Smith as a horny toad as most of the posters on this thread do. I think that many posters are blinded by their own bias interpretations.

No actually, pretty much everyone who doesn't need to believe in Joseph Smith puts Joseph Smith in the same category of all the other powerful religious/cult leaders who claim God wants them to screw girls and women. .

You seem to like the word cult to describe the LDS church and its leader. I don't see the LDS church as a cult but I can understand why antimormons and critics use it. It has a hard sounding consonant and rhymes with another c word that people use to relieve stress when they say it.

Reading the comments from the salt lake tribune article that were posted by readers of the article, the word cult is often used. I think that people may have too much stress in their life. Granted Cult sounds good...but it would not be a suitable word to describe the LDS church.

[_DarkHelmet]

Granted Cult sounds good...but it would not be a suitable word to describe the LDS church.

And yet so many non-mormons think its the perfect word to describe the LDS church. Cult members never think their church is a cult. Cults are always defined by those outside the cult. All they have to do is watch the news about the FLDS and immediately they say, "That's one weird cult." It's not the FLDS's fault that the world thinks they're a cult, it's just the way it is. Unfortunately many outsiders who observe mainstream LDS Mormonism think it's a cult, no matter how much LDS say it is not. There's nothing you can do about it, it's just the way it is.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me,

You misunderstand.

I am not referring exclusively to the LDS church, I am discussing religions and cults who have similar dynamics. (Powerful, typically patriarchal leaders who engage in alternative sexual practices or use their power to sexually use and/or abuse girls and women). When Joseph Smith began his church it was certainly considered a cult as are basically all new religions, but this has nothing to do with my post. I consider Mormonism today a religion.

[_truth dancer]

Hey Shades,

truth dancer, the fact that you thought the sentence:

"In order to become famous as a religious leader, you really need to draw media attention to the weird sexual arrangements within your group."

. . . was written by why me, of all people, is almost funnier than Dark Helmet's post itself!

Yeah, I was laughing at myself!

I was laughing out loud when I read DarkHelmet's post thinking it was WhyMe, not quite sure if he was joking or what... I have no excuse other than I need to read threads and not just pop in and read a post here and there as I tend to do!

In the past, just when I think I can't be surprised by apologetic ideas, I am; I was thinking this was one of those really weird ideas that blows my mind!

[_Ray A]

News Release, March 23, 2009:

Joseph Smith Had "Conjugal Relations" with Eight Plural Wives, Says FARMS.

[_Danna]

Sorry about that. You can find the original article and more here at Uncle Dale's:
http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/UK/miscUK01.htm#080042
I have edited my original post to add the link.

The cite is confused, in the sense that the "notes" do not appear in the original publication -- an odd way to present evidence.

I stated in my original post "Uncle Dale notes.....". I am happy to accept his scholarship, I am not claiming any original analysis here.

Nonetheless, as I have pointed out in the past, the Brotherton affidavit is highly suspect, as it was prepared at John C. Bennett's request and probably drafted by him. (Saintly Scoundrel, p. 105.) He reproduced it at City of the Saints, p. 236, and it the affidavit said: "you are at liberty to make what use of them you may think best." But the affidavit is written in John C. Bennett's writing style.

When we are looking for indicia of the misdemeanors of a despised religion, that which is contained in the four corners of an apostate is to be immediately distrusted -- a sort of axiom which applies to Origen's and Tertulllian's descriptions of the pagans.

So, what you are saying is that the word of an apostate can not be used as evidence?

What nonsense!

By refusing to be seduced and blackmailed by BY and JSjr, and by going public, Martha showed extraordinary strength and moral fiber for her time. After that she is hardly going to be taken in by Joseph's bitter abortionist/scapegoat.

Do you also reject the evidence of victims of child abuse on the grounds that they have demonstrated themselves to be opposed to pedophilia and are therefore biased against pedophiles?

Do you have any evidence that Martha would lie for JCB?

Did she gain anything from it other than vilification and the sundering of her family?

Sarah Pratt also managed to provide evidence of JSjr's modus operandi, acknowledging JCB's resemblance to pond scum, while retaining her ability to determine how likely it was that he was telling the truth based on the context and his motivation at the time.

JCB was a scum-bucket no doubt. But, after his fall from grace, he had every reason to make use of the most powerful weapon he had: the truth.

[_why me]

Do you have any evidence that Martha would lie for JCB?

Did she gain anything from it other than vilification and the sundering of her family?

Sarah Pratt also managed to provide evidence of JSjr's modus operandi, acknowledging JCB's resemblance to pond scum, while retaining her ability to determine how likely it was that he was telling the truth based on the context and his motivation at the time.

JCB was a scum-bucket no doubt. But, after his fall from grace, he had every reason to make use of the most powerful weapon he had: the truth.

Polygamy was a hot issue. No doubt about it. If a woman found it offensive some would go public and seek fame for 15 minutes. Such was Martha. She is no different than other women who seek instant fame. Martha went on a public tour seeking allies against the Mormons. Fine. But she had an agenda. Is she better than the women who accepted polygamy? I don't think so.

Nancy and Martha refused. But many accepted. And those that accepted are no different than the women who refused and they deserve equal respect from the critics on these boards.

[_Brackite]

It would not bother me in the least if he did have sex with them. But the pretext behind plural marriage was not sex or raising a righeous seed for Joseph Smith. He was all about kinship in the after life.

All to my recollection were genuinely sad when he was murdered and these women were sealed to Joseph Smith because of kinship in the afterlife.

Plural marriage is an eternal principle. It is founded on the notion that there will be far fewer men who will accept the atoning sacrifice than women. It has to do, somehow, with the struggle in the Garden of Eden, the choice Eve made, and the promise that she would be saved in childbearing. I don't get it all, but the fact that women are more spiritual and willing to accept the spirit is a fact.

What about the fact that there has been more males born than females here on Planet Earth? And, what about the fact there have been more males than females who have died before the age of eight Years old?

Now, Here is The Following important information, From About.com:

How many boys are born for every 100 girls?

There are 105 boy babies born for ever[y] 100 girl babies worldwide but scientists haven't determined why this sex ratio is so.

( http://geography.about.com/library/faq/ ... eratio.htm )




Please Chek Out and Also See:

Sex ratio:

infant mortality rate:



Shouldn't Marriage within the Celestial Kingdom just be defined as One Man and One Woman? Shouldn't Monogamous Marriages (NOT Plural Marriage) just be included within the Celestial Kingdom? Shouldn't it only include Monogamy (NOT Polygamy) Within the Celestial Kingdom (Kingdom of Heavem)?
I think so.

[_Brackite]

Unfortunately Ray, we do not have any such testimony from the women involved. It seems that these women /and how he treated the women he was sealed to/ had a great deal of respect for him. This was not looked upon by these women as some legal means to have sex with Joseph Smith. If it were the case we would have indictments of his behavior by these women but it seems that such indictments do not exist. All to my recollection were genuinely sad when he was murdered and these women were sealed to Joseph Smith because of kinship in the afterlife.

Hi why me,

The Following important information is from the Book, 'In Sacred Loneliness', By Todd Compton:

Because Reorganized Latter Day Saints claimed that Joseph Smith was not really married polygamously in the full (i.e., sexual) sense of the term, Utah Mormons (including Smith's wives) affirmed repeatedly that he had physical sexual relations with them—despite the Victorian conventions in nineteenth-century American culture which ordinarily would have prevented any mention of sexuality.

For instance, Mary Elizabeth Rollins Lightner stated that she knew of children born to Smith's plural wives: "I know he had six wives and I have known some of them from childhood up. I know he had three children. They told me. I think two are living today but they are not known as his children as they go by other names." Melissa Lott Willes testified that she had been Smith's wife "in very deed." Emily Partridge Young said she "roomed" with Joseph the night following her marriage to him, and said that she had "carnal intercourse" with him.

Other early witnesses also affirmed this. Benjamin Johnson wrote "On the 15th of May ... the Prophet again Came and at my hosue [house] ocupied the Same Room & Bed with my Sister that the month previous he had ocupied with the Daughter of the Later Bishop Partridge as his wife." According to Joseph Bates Noble, Smith told him he had spent a night with Louisa Beaman.

( INTRODUCTION: , Bold Emphasis Mine. )



Please Check Out and See Again This Post:

[_SatanWasSetUp]

If Joseph was married to all these women why wouldn't he have sex with them? Isn't that one of the things husbands and wives do? That's why I always laugh when a sweet LDS woman says Joseph Smith had plural wives, but he only had sex with Emma. Somehow I think it helps LDS women cope with Polygamy if they can convince themselves that Joseph only had sex with Emma. It somehow makes him more faithful as a husband. If there was plural marriage, it's safe to assume there was sex. LOL.