Was Joseph Smith Trustworthy?

[_DarkHelmet]

Mormons believe that all people can experience the presence of the HG, but it will not remain with them as a "gift" unless they are baptised and confirmed into the Church. Thus for the "gift" to "work properly", they must be worthy of the HG, but they can, supposedly, call upon the HG and receive "his" administration more readily than someone who does not have that gift.

I wonder who pulled this piece of theology out of their ass. Was this a Joseph Smith invention, or did it come later? Joseph Smith wasn't baptized into the church when he was visited by God, Jesus, and the Angel Moroni. The Holy Ghost helped him translate the Book of Mormon before he was baptized.

[_KimberlyAnn]

Why Me, I've read through your many replies on this thread and have yet to see one instance of your proving Joseph Smith trustworthy. I've read plenty of excuses. I've also noticed that you attempt to defend Smith by pointing out that others may be untrustworthy as well. That is beside the point, Why Me.

It is my belief that Smith is so untrustworthy that there is no need for anyone to pray about his claims. His claims of seeing God, of prophethood, of finding gold plates and of translating them with a rock in a hat are so absurd on their face that they shouldn't be believed even were Joseph Smith a reliable man. The fact that Joseph Smith was so untrustworthy makes his claims all the more ridiculous and unbelievable. I may as well pray to see if my story-telling six year old neighbor is right about Darth Vader hiding in the woods behind his house.

KA

[_Uncle Dale]

... If Joseph Smith (if he were a fraud) condemned both men, why did not these men spill the beans?
...

Martin Harris DID "spill the beans" at Kirtland, late in 1833, and thus became the first
Mormon accused before a High Council, summoned to try him for heresy and/or defamation
of Joseph Smith, Jr.

But Harris continued to believe in Smith's supernatural powers -- even if he did accuse
the self-proclaimed "prophet" of drinking alcohol, while "translating" the Book of Mormon.

Sidney Rigdon, later in life, voiced many strong criticisms of Smith -- essentially proclaiming
him a fallen prophet. But, like Harris, Rigdon continued to believe in Smith's magical powers.

On that score, Smith did rather well --- in persuading people to have confidence in his
magic, or his clairvoyance. Had you or I been there, back in 1830, he might well have
convinced us both that he could fly to the Moon on gossamer wings. Or that we should
turn our spouses over to his intimate keeping.

What do I trust about Joseph Smith, Jr.?
I trust that he was a truly great con man.



Uncle Dale

.

[_Brackite]

Was Oliver Cowdery trustworthy?

Yes, I believe that Oliver Cowdery was trustworthy, Especially When He Stated That:

When he [Joseph Smith] was there we had some conversation in which in every instance I did not fail to affirm that which I had said was strictly true. A dirty, nasty, filthy affair of his and Fanny Alger's was talked over in which I strictly declared that I had never deserted from the truth in the matter, and as I supposed was admitted by himself.

( http://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/Oliver_Cowdery )

[_Ray A]

What do I trust about Joseph Smith, Jr.?
I trust that he was a truly great con man.



Uncle Dale

As coincidence would have it, I read your website article on this only days ago.

For me the clincher is polygamy. How a "prophet of God" could resort to such emotional abuse is just beyond comprehension.

by the way, Dale, I guess your operation went well?

[_Uncle Dale]

What do I trust about Joseph Smith, Jr.?
I trust that he was a truly great con man.



Uncle Dale

As coincidence would have it, I read your website article on this only days ago.

The posting there is only about half-finished. I had to interrupt my
writing in order to undergo two operations on my eyes.

When I finish up the "Joseph Smith - Con Man" essay. I will argue that
humankind occasionally needs a "master con man" or two -- in order
to shake society up and encourage human beings to attempt actions
they might otherwise not believe possible.

For me the clincher is polygamy. How a "prophet of God" could resort to such emotional abuse is just beyond comprehension.

Had the Mormons ever articulated a reasonable defense of polygamy, I
might have listened. Had the LDS women ever argued for it, in a way
that was believable -- I might have listened longer. Plural marriage, as
an occasional social oddity, I have no trouble with. But as a divine
commandment, it stinks.

by the way, Dale, I guess your operation went well?

Two down -- one left to go. Hopefully the last surgery will enable
me to actually read the stuff I'm currently trying to write.

UD

[_why me]

I would be surprised if Mormons would deny that people of other faiths can have the pressence of the holy ghost. But who knows...maybe so.

I'm slowly realising you don't know very much about Mormonism at all. With that in mind it's easy to see why you could actually end up embarrassing apologists. DCP may not be very well liked, but at least he knows what he's talking about, and when to remain silent.

Mormons believe that all people can experience the presence of the HG, but it will not remain with them as a "gift" unless they are baptised and confirmed into the Church.

I think that I said the same thing except I didn't go into other details. Mormons believe that people of other faiths can experience the HG. But who knows Ray, I am sure that there may be some who would say no. Always good to leave some wiggle room.

[_why me]

Why Me, I've read through your many replies on this thread and have yet to see one instance of your proving Joseph Smith trustworthy. I've read plenty of excuses. I've also noticed that you attempt to defend Smith by pointing out that others may be untrustworthy as well. That is beside the point, Why Me.

KA

How can anyone be proven trustworthy? I don't think that there is a trustworthy person alive. To be trustworthy, almost implies perfection. However, I do think that people can generate trust. And I see nothing to imply that Joseph Smith was not trustworthy as a human being.

Now I would not entrust him with my money. In that case he was not trustworthy. But then again, he was not trustworthy with his own money. H was a poor businessman.

But many people who where members of the church did find him trustworthy as a human being. So trustworthy, that after he was murdered they packed their bags and headed west to settle a new area where they would be free to worship god as they saw fit to do. In that respect, Joseph Smith generated a lot of trust. The members at that time were not stupid. They lived in close proximity of Joseph Smith and BY. Their experiences confirmed the truthfulness of the gospel. And in that regard they had great trust in Joseph Smith the prophet. And in the end, that is what counted.

And this was also for Emma. She knew her husband very well. But she remained faithful that he was a prophet and trusted that he was. But she missed the Kirkland Joseph more than the Nauvoo Joseph but did not lose trust in his prophethood.

[_Ray A]

But she missed the Kirkland Joseph more than the Nauvoo Joseph but did not lose trust in his prophethood.

How would you explain, then, why she burned the revelation that became known as Section 132, and later even lied (denied) that polygamy was practised?

[_huckelberry]

escape the nightmare,
by whatever means reaches the door out.
just leave