Missing Papyrus

[_William Schryver]

Shades:

But, playing devil's advocate for the moment, let's say that that particular Mopologetic holds some water. Now, what are the odds that a group of Egyptian morticians would drop what they were doing as some Jewish redactor strolled in, sit calmly and idly by as he penned the Book of Abraham on their scroll, and then pick up where they left off after the Jewish redactor walked out?

The odds are statistically 0.

Perhaps so, IF that is what happened.

That's the question, of course, isn't it?

What do you know about the man Horos? What do you know about his religious beliefs? What do you know about the Jewish presence in Thebes during the Ptolemaic period? Anything?

By the way, have you done any reading in the published scholarship concerning The Letter of Recommendation Made by Isis? I have. It's quite fascinating, actually.

I know I've come to see very plausible reasons why such a document would find its way onto a scroll also containing the text of a Book of Abraham. Makes me wonder if Horos didn't view his little "Sensen" document as a "temple recommend" (as it were) for the great beyond.

But I digress ...

You can hold to whatever premises you'd like. I will do the same, if you don't mind.

[_Sethbag]

Will, the Book of Abraham is a square peg, and reality is a round hole. You have realized, since you're a smart man, that if you can cut the corners off that square peg, you might jam it in there anyway. Or, barring that, if you can find a version of the square peg whose center-to-corner length is equal to or less than the radius of the circular hole, it will just drop right in.

But all these strategies are still poking a square peg through a round hole.

The Book of Abraham was obviously fabricated, not translated, by Joseph Smith, possibly with the help of others. You can wish it were not so, and you can obfuscate and try to mask the fact that this is so, but you cannot change the reality of it, that this is so.

[_Who Knows]

There could theoretically have been a core of some kind, but there is no evidence that there was, and quite often papyrus rolls were just rolled up like a towel with no core at all. Hoffmann states that wrappings cannot be actualized below a length of ~ 2.5-3 cm, so the very innermost wrappings have to be subtracted even if there was no solid core.

No one bothered answering you because it's not a significant issue. We don't know if these particular scrolls were wrapped around a small dowel, or not. But, in either case, it wouldn't make a significant difference to the total length of the scroll -- unless, as I have said before, you wan't to claim that it was wrapped around a stick the size of a telephone pole.

Thank you and thank you. I knew it was a simple question...

[_JohnStuartMill]

You can hold to whatever premises you'd like. I will do the same, if you don't mind.

Post-modern apologetics.

[_dblagent007]

Do you agree that the Hoffmann formula returns reliable results?

Just for clarification, the Hoffman formula is:

Z ≈ (E2-6.25)/(2*S) - E

and the perfect spiral formula is:

Z = E2/(2*S) - E

Is that right? Are we all on the same page?

[_CaliforniaKid]

Do you agree that the Hoffmann formula returns reliable results?

More or less.

Do you agree that a known papyrus thickness and an outside circumference permits the spiral length formula to return reliable results?

Not necessarily, since papyrus thickness does not necessarily equal Delta R. You'll also need a mechanism to subtract the inner wrappings as instructed by Hoffmann.

Do you agree that papyrus 100 microns thick was routinely manufactured over the course of at least 1000 years in ancient Egypt? (New Kingdom - Roman era)

I don't have enough information to say. But do I agree that it's possible that 100-micron papyrus was produced at the time and place of the Hor roll's manufacture? Yes, it's possible.

If the answer to those questions is yes, I'd say you have a few problems in your attempt to argue that the uncut portion of the scroll of Horos was only three feet in length.

My argument will have problems if and when the measurements are more definitively checked and Hoffmann's formula returns a longer length. If such a time arrives I will shrug, admit I was wrong, and go on with my life.

Best,

-Chris

[_William Schryver]

Will, the Book of Abraham is a square peg, and reality is a round hole. You have realized, since you're a smart man, that if you can cut the corners off that square peg, you might jam it in there anyway. Or, barring that, if you can find a version of the square peg whose center-to-corner length is equal to or less than the radius of the circular hole, it will just drop right in.

But all these strategies are still poking a square peg through a round hole.

The Book of Abraham was obviously fabricated, not translated, by Joseph Smith, possibly with the help of others. You can wish it were not so, and you can obfuscate and try to mask the fact that this is so, but you cannot change the reality of it, that this is so.

It must be quite comforting for you to finally be able to go through life with such a degree of certainty.

I, of course, see many possibilities where you apparently see none.

[_William Schryver]

CS:

My argument will have problems if and when the measurements are more definitively checked and Hoffmann's formula returns a longer length. If such a time arrives I will shrug, admit I was wrong, and go on with my life.

I am quite confident that such a time will arrive. Then we’ll see if you make good on your promise.

And Chris, if you eventually do this, I will personally fly out to Sacramento and take you out to dinner at a restaurant of your choice – along with all the wine you can drink.

Well, all the house wine you can drink. ;) I’ve seen the prices on some of those wine lists out there.

[_Kishkumen]

I, of course, see many possibilities where you apparently see none.

You have faith that the Book of Abraham is an authentic ancient text, and you accept as possible anything that supports your faith. I see no reason outside of a Mormon testimony to suppose it is ancient and await any evidence that would lead me to think otherwise. No amount of scroll does that.

[_JohnStuartMill]

Will, is there any historical evidence that, if it existed, would convince you that the Book of Abraham was fraudulent, or is this all just a waste of time?