He can't be serious: Joseph and the Book of Abraham

[_Trevor]

Do you really think that Joseph actually believed the specific ties he showed his scribes between the character on the BoB and the parts of the Book of Abraham he ascribed to them?

Any answer to this question would be more revealing of my opinions than it would be of Joseph Smith's mindset. In other words, I can't read minds, and I do not know what Joseph Smith really believed or not. What I am trying to say, however, is that we are culturally predisposed to treat people who use Joseph Smith's methods as though they must be insincere. For this reason, we non-believers easily embrace that position when we discover things that appear ludicrous according to our sensibilities.

Believers live in the same environment, and they respond to such criticisms by doing their best to dissociate Joseph Smith from these dubious-seeming practices.

[_Trevor]

I'm actually more in agreement with you than Sethbag about the KEP. I don't know if Smith believed the Book of Abraham was a true translation or not, but I do believe he saw himself as engaged in a pious project whether by "shaping reality" or otherwise. I know Don sees (or at least used to see) Joseph Smith's attitude as basically cynical, but I don't. In my mind, the "pious" aspect of "pious fraud" needs to be given its due weight.

Any disagreement between the three of us seems more one of emphasis. I think there is much overlap between our respective views. You and Don are the real scholars of Mormonism. I am just happy to add my 2 cents here and there in hopes that a good idea will emerge and help shape the discussion in some way.

[_CaliforniaKid]

You and Don are the real scholars of Mormonism.

Give yourself some credit! You're no amateur.

[_why me]

There is no way that Joseph Smith could have written the book of abraham. It was beyond his potential as a writer. To understand the book of abraham and its origins, either one must look at its divine origins or find another author. But Joseph Smith did not write it.

What is amazing just how wonderful a 'fraud' he was, so wonderful that it is difficult to pin him down on anything that was written--BOM, Book of Abraham or the Book of Moses. Thus, we have these discussions over and over again---but you got to hand it to ol' Joe, he was certainly gifted if he wrote all the above, organized a religion, got 11 witnesses, convinced his wife of the Book of Mormon, had visions with witnesses (Oliver), built cities, ran for president, developed doctrine married 33 women and so forth. And he guy died at 38 years old!!!!!

The fraud theory smells fishy here.

[_CaliforniaKid]

There is no way that Joseph Smith could have written the book of abraham. It was beyond his potential as a writer.

I beg to differ.

Some of Joseph's letters, by the way, are actually quite eloquent.

you got to hand it to ol' Joe, he was certainly gifted if he wrote all the above, organized a religion, got 11 witnesses, convinced his wife of the Book of Mormon, had visions with witnesses (Oliver), built cities, ran for president, developed doctrine married 33 women and so forth. And he guy died at 38 years old!!!!!

Yes, dying young at the hands of an angry mob is the sign of a very effective fraud.

In all seriousness, whyme, there are other religious leaders who could claim very similar accomplishments. Ann Lee's followers left behind scores of truly astonishing testimonies of visionaries experiences they had, some of them attested by large groups of witnesses. The Lady of Fatima performed a miracle on cue that was witnessed by something like 80,000 people (if I recall correctly). Jim Jones built a city and commanded such obedience that 909 of his followers drank poison.

[_why me]

Some of Joseph's letters, by the way, are actually quite eloquent.

Yes, dying young at the hands of an angry mob is the sign of a very effective fraud.

In all seriousness, whyme, there are other religious leaders who could claim very similar accomplishments. Ann Lee's followers left behind scores of truly astonishing testimonies of visionaries experiences they had, some of them attested by large groups of witnesses. The Lady of Fatima performed a miracle on cue that was witnessed by something like 80,000 people (if I recall correctly). Jim Jones built a city and commanded such obedience that 909 of his followers drank poison.

It depends on the time line and on the touch up. Some letters are rather poorly written and poorly spelt. Even in the priesthood manual a touch up was required in terms of spelling when quoting directly from Joseph Smith. Here is an example:

Excerpt of Joseph Smith, New York City, to Emma Smith, Kirtland, Ohio, 13 October 1832, Community of Christ Archives, Independence, Missouri. Published in: The Personal Writings Of Joseph Smith, 
Edited by Dean C. Jessee, Deseret Book, 2002.



Oct 13 1832

P Pearl Street House N Y

My Dear Wife

This day I have been walking through the most splended part of the City of [X] New Y the buildings are truly great and wonderful to the astonishing ^of^ [XX] eve[r]y beholder […] there is but few Cases of the cholra in this City now and if you should see the people you would not [XXXX] know that they [XXXXXX] had ever heard of the ^cholra^ I hope you will excuse me for writting this letter so soon after w[r]iting for I feel as if I wanted to ^[XXX]^ [XXX] say something to you to comfort you in your beculier triel and presant affliction […]

PS while Brother Whitney [is] Selecting goods I have nothing to [do] but to sit in my room and pray for him that he may have strength to indure his labours for truly it is tedious Job to stand on the feet all day to select goods […] I prefer reading and praying and holding comuneion with the holy spirit and writing to ^you^ then walking the streets and beholding the distraction of man I have ^had^ some conversation with few which gave satisfaction and one very butiful young gentleman from Jersy whose countinance was very sollam he came and set by my side and began to converce with me about the Cholra and I learned he had been seased with it and came very near die[i]ng with it he said the Lord had spared him for some wise pu[r]pose I took advantage of this and opened a long discours with him he received my teaching [XXXX] appearan[t]ly with much pleasure and becam[e] very strongly attacth to me we talkd till late at night and concluded to omit ^conversation^ till the next day but having some business to do he was detained untill the boat was ready to go out and must leave he came to me and bid me Farewell ^and we parted^ with much reluctance […] I remain your affectionate Husband until Death

Joseph Smith Junior

Not much there to compare with the book of abraham. In order to write the Book of Abraham, he could not have written it. But it could have been written as Vogel may claim with the Book of Mormon: with a steady stream of consciousness. But someone would have to be the scribe for this to happen and the scenerio would need to be similiar to the Book of Mormon.

I don't think that Joseph Smith had the means to write the book. And I am no fan of steady streams of consciousness ideas. There needs to be a different explanation.

[_why me]

And here is another letter that shows corrections by the editor:

Nauvoo August 18th 1842

Dear, and Beloved, Brother and Sister, Whitney, and &c.—

I take this oppertunity to communi[c]ate, some of my feelings, privetely at this time, which I want you three Eternaly to keep in your own bosams; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has pased lately between us, that the time of my abscence from you seems so long, and dreary, that it seems, as if I could not live long in this way: and <if you> three would come and see me in this my lonely retreat, it would afford me great relief, of mind, if those with whom I am alied, do love nie; now is the time to afford me succour, in the days of exile, for you know I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Graingers, Just back of Brother Hyrams farm, it is only one mile from town, the nights are very pleasant indeed, all three of y you come <can> come and See me in the fore part of the night, let Brother Whitney come a little a head, and nock at the south East corner of the house at <the> window; it is next to the cornfield, I have a room inti=rely by myself, the whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safty, I <know> it is the will of God that you should comfort <me> now in this time of affliction, or not at[ta]l now is the time or never, but I hav[e] no kneed of saying any such thing, to you, for I know the goodness of your hearts, and that you will do the will of the Lord, when it is made known to you; the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty: only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater frendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I <will> tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. one thing I want to see you for is <to> git the fulness of my blessings sealed upon our heads, &c. you wi will pardon me for my earnest=ness on <this subject> when you consider how lonesome I must be, your good feelings know how to <make> every allowance for me, I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she don't don't fail to come to night. I subscribe myself your most obedient, <and> affectionate, companion, and friend.

Joseph Smith

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_fr ... ugust_1842)

Not much to compare there to the book of abraham either.

[_Ray A]

And here is another letter that shows corrections by the editor:

Nauvoo August 18th 1842

Dear, and Beloved, Brother and Sister, Whitney, and &c.—

I take this oppertunity to communi[c]ate, some of my feelings, privetely at this time, which I want you three Eternaly to keep in your own bosams; for my feelings are so strong for you since what has pased lately between us, that the time of my abscence from you seems so long, and dreary, that it seems, as if I could not live long in this way: and <if you> three would come and see me in this my lonely retreat, it would afford me great relief, of mind, if those with whom I am alied, do love nie; now is the time to afford me succour, in the days of exile, for you know I foretold you of these things. I am now at Carlos Graingers, Just back of Brother Hyrams farm, it is only one mile from town, the nights are very pleasant indeed, all three of y you come <can> come and See me in the fore part of the night, let Brother Whitney come a little a head, and nock at the south East corner of the house at <the> window; it is next to the cornfield, I have a room inti=rely by myself, the whole matter can be attended to with most perfect safty, I <know> it is the will of God that you should comfort <me> now in this time of affliction, or not at[ta]l now is the time or never, but I hav[e] no kneed of saying any such thing, to you, for I know the goodness of your hearts, and that you will do the will of the Lord, when it is made known to you; the only thing to be careful of; is to find out when Emma comes then you cannot be safe, but when she is not here, there is the most perfect safty: only be careful to escape observation, as much as possible, I know it is a heroick undertakeing; but so much the greater frendship, and the more Joy, when I see you I <will> tell you all my plans, I cannot write them on paper, burn this letter as soon as you read it; keep all locked up in your breasts, my life depends upon it. one thing I want to see you for is <to> git the fulness of my blessings sealed upon our heads, &c. you wi will pardon me for my earnest=ness on <this subject> when you consider how lonesome I must be, your good feelings know how to <make> every allowance for me, I close my letter, I think Emma wont come tonight if she don't don't fail to come to night. I subscribe myself your most obedient, <and> affectionate, companion, and friend.

Joseph Smith

http://en.wikisource.org/wiki/Letter_fr ... ugust_1842)

Not much to compare there to the book of abraham either.

Stop your Internet Googling, and do some real hardcopy reading. You're just selecting bits and pieces that don't give an overall and more accurate picture.

I nominate you as a second Will Schryver. You perfect the art of denial. You and Will combined could, seriously, put anti-Mormons totally out of business.

[_why me]

Stop your Internet Googling, and do some real hardcopy reading. You're just selecting bits and pieces that don't give an overall and more accurate picture.

I nominate you as a second Will Schryver. You perfect the art of denial. You and Will combined could, seriously, put anti-Mormons totally out of business.

I gave two letters as examples to prove my point. Are the letters geniune? Are they exact? Now that is the important question. Someone made a statement about Joseph Smith's writing ability. I have given two examples at different time periods. I also gave a theory about Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham. He could not have written it (like a letter) because he did not have the talent.

I then gave two examples.

[_Ray A]

I gave two letters as examples to prove my point. Are the letters geniune? Are they exact? Now that is the important question. Someone made a statement about Joseph Smith's writing ability. I have given two examples at different time periods. I also gave a theory about Joseph Smith and the Book of Abraham. He could not have written it (like a letter) because he did not have the talent.

I then gave two examples.

I think you need to decide whether you're a Catholic or a Mormon.

When you work that out, hopefully you'll think more clearly.