a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

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_Doctor Scratch
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a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I was tipped off to this thanks to a very important "informant." This document, I believe, sheds a great deal of light on the principal motivations behind Mopologetics. It shows what dubious ends the apologists are attempting to achieve, and it lays bare the ugly, duplicitous foundation upon which online Mopologetics was built.

The following is apparently a very old Internet document. It is somewhat difficult to read, but you can still parse it out:

http://www.shields-research.org/Critics/EarlyH.html

Here is the text of the document, with my commentary interspersed:

Area # 31 Mormon 04-20-95 18:00 Message # 12822
From : Doug Marshall [former LDS]
To : Ron Hathcock
Subj : Anonymous

RH-> DM> 3. Ignoring the opposition is effective. UMI's stories
DM> (nearly a dozen about me and my partner and our
DM> organization)

RH-> Because I only read messages to myself or to ALL, I've
RH-> missed out on this.
-> What is your organization doing to earn UMI's attention?


A bit of backstory: Doug Marshall (as John Larsen explained in a recent post) was one of the founders of SHIELDS. He has since abandoned the LDS faith, and in fact he has expressed a great deal of regret and embarrassment over his involvement in SHIELDS. I should add that UMI=Utah Missions Inc., headed by Mopologetic arch enemy Rev. Dennis Wright. (There is a lot of correspondence at SHIELDS between various UMI people and the apologists. Much of it is quite nasty.)

In terms of this excerpt, I'd like to draw your attention to "RH"'s question, "What is your organization doing to earn UMI's attention?" Notice the cloak-and-dagger tone of this, as if there is some nefarious "plot" to interfere with UMI's activities. (UMI, by the way, is responsible for publishing the rather well-known Evangel, which our very own CKSalmon has been associated with, If I recall correctly.)

In any event, the communique continues:

Uh.... it didn't happen here, so ya' really didn't miss anything.

I had the audacity to actually question what Mike Reynolds had to say, in public and with documentation... and then to print the information and Reynolds' **documented** lack of response in front of a roomful of witnesses... Reynolds and McKay are EXPERTS and they ARE NOT to be questioned... they also have rules against Mormons ignoring the Strawman named "Mormon Belief" that they build and going after their statements.


This is a bit puzzling, but it sounds as if Marshall very publicly confronted these UMI people in an effort to embarrass them. It sounds as if he turned up at some public event, waving around this "documentation," all in the hopes of attacking them and making them look bad. But, it gets worse. Given the fact that Marshall & et al. are/were LDS apologists, the following will no doubt strike many as being unbelievably hypocritical and low:

THEN I read the political stories in the Evangel... follow this:

a) UMI is a 501(c)3 organization, so they are not to endorse political candidates.
b) UMI publishes the Evangel, a tabloid-style newspaper that talks about the UMI version of Mormon Doctrine **and** that makes a point in every issue to show that Mormons are morally, mentally and spiritually inferior and maybe even unAmerican.
c) UMI, in a typical Mormon-bashing issue, published a story about a local (Marlow, Oklahoma) political race in which one candidate was a Mormon and one went to Church with a member of UMI's staff.
d) I felt it was a political endorsement **when taken in context of UMI's stated purpose and typical issue of the Evangel.**
e) I called a local Oklahoma paper (The Duncan Banner) to find out what I could find out about the race... They ended up interviewing me and running a couple of stories on UMI that were not full of fawning praise for these intrepid experts.
f) I called several organizations for an opinion of the legality of UMI's stories vis-a-vis their 501(c)3 status... all of them told me that they would advise a 501(c)3 organization to NOT do as UMI had done as it got very near the line, and that the IRS were the only ones who could say if it was legal or not.
g) so I sent the information to the IRS.


Wow! Let's pause a moment here to gather our bearings. This communique reveals that:
1. The apologists wanted to destroy UMI's non-profit status.
2. The apologists had been closely monitoring UMI's activities, including "political" commentary.
3. The apologists were stepping outside the boundaries of critical exchange and actually contacted the IRS, all in an effort to attack UMI.
4. All of this was "plotted" out and discussed by way of this skinny-l-esque network.

As you can expect, there was an immediate round of gloating:


To say the least, UMI went ballistic.

One of the most interesting comments they made was that I should have asked **them** if they had done anything illegal..... (When I pointed out that that would be like asking Mrs Clinton if she had done anything against they law, they got really abusive...)

Our organization is SHIELDS, the Scholarly & Historical Information Exchange for Latter-day Saints... we are an informal network of regular Mormons who do some research and reading and responding to the antimormonoids. We developed the name, and the structure, because sometimes having an organization is a benefit, but we do not have membership or anything like that.

I've posted our address several times, but will do it again...
SHIELDS
[NOTE: address removed as no longer valid for the current SHIELDS. The SHIELDS name was donated to us by Doug Marshall and Doug Yancey.]

Thanx for asking,

Doug


I believe that this is a very important, early Internet Mopologist document. It shows that, practically from the start, the apologists were going to use the Internet as a weapon against critics. That is, they would use the fast communication and information-sharing that it offered as a way to stage in real life assaults on critics and critical organizations. And all the foundations are right here in this 1995 document: the nastiness, the penchant for cheap shots, the gloating, the invitation to join in on the assaults, and so on.

I can only wonder if this document was circulated among other Mopologetic groups, but my sense is "yes, it did." Probably, the members of skinny-l were treated to this, or perhaps this was even a precursor to the Skinny List. (Revealingly, the list was called the "Mormon FIDONet BBS echo," with "MORMONFIDO" clearly referring to the "attack-dog" mentality embraced by many apologists.) Very interesting, in any case.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_moksha
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _moksha »

Hmmm, Shields going to the IRS in complaint about another religious organization (in the Religious and Charitable tax bracket) engaging in political behavior. Well, that makes sense since they are proscribed from engaging in that type of behavior. Such behavior should be closely examined. Let them register as a Political Action Committee if they have a history of meddling in politics. Kudos to Shields for helping keep such organizations honest!
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_Gadianton
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Gadianton »

Yikes! This is devestating! It certainly explains why the other apologetic organizations distance themselves from SHIELDS, and why they only enjoy the SHIELDS style attacks from a distance. Truly, with tactics like this, I'm kind of surprised DCP allows them to post his correspondences. I would be very wary about associating with these types. I mean, this is a red flag, a very red one. The questions raised by the complex policies for donating to SHIELDS are pretty well answered by this kind of example of their activities.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_Kishkumen
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Kishkumen »

Gadianton wrote:Yikes! This is devestating! It certainly explains why the other apologetic organizations distance themselves from SHIELDS, and why they only enjoy the SHIELDS style attacks from a distance. Truly, with tactics like this, I'm kind of surprised DCP allows them to post his correspondences. I would be very wary about associating with these types. I mean, this is a red flag, a very red one. The questions raised by the complex policies for donating to SHIELDS are pretty well answered by this kind of example of their activities.


It may very well be that Dr. Peterson if anything actually admires and envies SHIELDS. Remember that he was deeply concerned about the effect that incorporation in BYU would have on FARMS. Maybe part of the calculus in his misgivings was the realization that the LDS Church would not want an organization at BYU to be caught doing this type of thing. They had been burned in the past by Wilkinson and his little investigations into commies and atheists on campus. Peterson probably vicariously revels in the freedom that the SHIELDS bozos have had to undertake their Danite tactics on behalf of the LDS Church. Only he could tell us, but I doubt he would be frank about it anyway.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_Gadianton
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Gadianton »

Yes, Reverand, I suppose you might be right. I'm trying to give the benefit of the doubt to DCP though.

Doctor Scratch:

Before you leave the office tommorow, I'd like to see an abbreviated version of this incident on my desk, suitable for publication in the Encyclopedia of Mopologetics.
Lou Midgley 08/20/2020: "...meat wad," and "cockroach" are pithy descriptions of human beings used by gemli? They were not fashioned by Professor Peterson.

LM 11/23/2018: one can explain away the soul of human beings...as...a Meat Unit, to use Professor Peterson's clever derogatory description of gemli's ideology.
_bcspace
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _bcspace »

I believe that this is a very important, early Internet Mopologist document. It shows that, practically from the start, the apologists were going to use the Internet as a weapon against critics.


I am not associated with any of these organizations but I see nothing wrong with subverting antiMormon critics.

And all the foundations are right here in this 1995 document: the nastiness, the penchant for cheap shots, the gloating, the invitation to join in on the assaults, and so on.


Sounds more like the gnashing of teeth when one's favorite strawman is exposed.
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_Kishkumen
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Kishkumen »

bcspace wrote:
And all the foundations are right here in this 1995 document: the nastiness, the penchant for cheap shots, the gloating, the invitation to join in on the assaults, and so on.


Sounds more like the gnashing of teeth when one's favorite strawman is exposed.


I didn't think you had it in you, bc, but, yes, it is clear that some of the Mopologists gnash their teeth when their favorite strawman arguments are exposed.

Bravo to you, sir.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
_harmony
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _harmony »

Kishkumen wrote:It may very well be that Dr. Peterson if anything actually admires and envies SHIELDS. Remember that he was deeply concerned about the effect that incorporation in BYU would have on FARMS. Maybe part of the calculus in his misgivings was the realization that the LDS Church would not want an organization at BYU to be caught doing this type of thing. They had been burned in the past by Wilkinson and his little investigations into commies and atheists on campus. Peterson probably vicariously revels in the freedom that the SHIELDS bozos have had to undertake their Danite tactics on behalf of the LDS Church. Only he could tell us, but I doubt he would be frank about it anyway.


Oh, I don't think Daniel is anywhere near the same league as Stan, when it comes to viciousness. Stan can stand alone at the top of that pinnacle.
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Tom »

Doctor Scratch wrote:(Revealingly, the list was called the "Mormon FIDONet BBS echo," with "MORMONFIDO" clearly referring to the "attack-dog" mentality embraced by many apologists.)


FIDONet is the name of the popular computer network once used by Mormon and thousands of other bulletin boards.
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Re: a historic Apologetic Communique Comes to Light

Post by _Kishkumen »

harmony wrote:Oh, I don't think Daniel is anywhere near the same league as Stan, when it comes to viciousness. Stan can stand alone at the top of that pinnacle.


You have a very generous and kind nature, harmony, and it does you credit.
"Petition wasn’t meant to start a witch hunt as I’ve said 6000 times." ~ Hanna Seariac, LDS apologist
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