The MADness of the gay marriage debate

[_Gazelam]

Ray,

The Church believes that serious discussion of these issues is not helped when extreme elements on both sides of the debate demonize the other.

Its like when your discussing North Koreas testing of their nuclear bombs. Your all calm and civil when your trying to get them to stop, but if they don't stop we're fully prepared to nuke them into an ashheap.

Wrong is wrong.

[_The Dude]

Beastie, I don't think it was defensible for you to claim broad future victory for the gay marriage movement when, in fact, gay marriage is still not allowed in most places. Future votes in the coming generation could trend either way, despite the slim majority of young people who support it right now. (It was 58%, right?) For you to take that bit of data and accuse anyone who disagrees with your vision of the future of self delusion (more or less what you did) is worthy of a chastisement in my opinion. Unfortunately, people make such sweeping predictions all the time on MADB, especially coming from the other side with the likes of jwhitlock, Droopy, and wenglund. Charity did it with the backing of scripture LOL! These usual suspects help set the tone of the board. You were only singled out for being a high profile critic.

I would just point out (to Ray) that I was banned merely for mentioning the existence of a YouTube video of a Big Love episode. ...and for having the opinion that said video was not offensive.

[_Ray A]

Its like when your discussing North Koreas testing of their nuclear bombs. Your all calm and civil when your trying to get them to stop, but if they don't stop we're fully prepared to nuke them into an ashheap.

Wrong is wrong.

Your view doesn't surprise me, Gaz. There are about five threads going on about homosexuality on MAD right now, and many LDS posters would agree with you. Wade is also now officially anti-Gay (as in anti-Mormon) in my opinion, and beyond reasoning with.

It is just pitiful to watch.

[_ktallamigo]

Beastie: I do agree that people change their minds on topics as they age.

I was extremely conservative as a teenager, moderately conservative in my early twenties, mildly liberal in my 30's and extremely liberal in my forties.

Kind of funny.

What caused the change: education

The more I learned about the world the more liberal I became.

But that's just me.

By the time I'm in my seventies I could be dangerous.

[_EAllusion]

It's fairly obvious that gay rights will be increasingly supported as time goes on because of the disparity of support between the old and the young. It's the result of shifts in attitudes that show every sign of being entrenched. The data confirms this with each passing year. Gay marriage opponents aren't likely to agree with this, but the problem is that much of the opposition flows from irrational prejudices that are just increasingly broken down among younger demographics. The younger you go, the more that is true. The idea of being openly disgusted by seeing two gay men kiss, for instance, is quite easy for a many 70 year old to get and weird to many a 16 ear old. Smart social conservatives are trying to deal with the ramifications of this, not being in denial.

I guess you could've pointed to the fact that Clark Goble agrees with you. When you insulate yourself with a respected Mormon holding your position, they aren't as quick to bring mod action.

http://www.libertypages.com/cgw/2009/03 ... -collapse/

I’m mixed on the culture war issue. I think some of the tactics used by religious conservatives have been counterproductive. Further some of the culture war issues (such as evolution) are just inane. Some, regardless of what religious conservatives think, are doomed to failure. (Gay relationships, for instance, will become normed behavior on par with heterosexual ones within a few decades. Among the young they pretty much are already.)

[_why me]

Today we live in a postmodern world where anything goes. And for those that are against aspects of postmodernism, there is a sense that one is longer free to voice a contrary opinion...just look at poor Miss California. Most LDS are taking a look at what is going on around them... and they don't like what they see.

You don't know what the f*** you're talking about. I assume by "postmodernism" you mean "moral relativism", but even that doesn't salvage your point from the bottom of Stupid Lagoon. Moral relativists can't be opposed to anti-gay-marriage advocates. They're moral relativists -- tey beleef een notting, Leboski.

I was referring to truth and the lack of the meta narrative--universal truths that guided modernity. Now, we live in an age of many little truths brought forth by idenity groups and each of these truths need to be respected by the whole. Same sex marriage would be one of these idenity truths. Now of course, our society does frown on idenity truths that harm children but more and more idenity truths are coming to the fore making universal values less important. Values have become fragmented.

Miss California dared to step on one group's idenity truth and they resented it and they attempted to ruin her. It seems that one can not interfere with idenity truth without risking career.

[Guest]

When popular culture communicates to adults that gay people are human beings, that's "brainwashing", but when a religious group inculcates into children the belief that gay people are afflicted with a moral disease, that's not? Stop being stupid, please.

Actually, popular culture is not communicating to teenagers that gay people are human beings. It does communicate that gay people are objects to be exploited just like any group. But in that exploitation it communicates that the gay lifestyle is trendy and fashionable. And it communicates that gay marriage should be supported because we all should have the opportunity to marry who we want to marry regardless if it is of the same sex.

But for the more conservative and Bible following majority, they are classified negatively and whoever does not support gay marriage is listed as a jerk, idiot, stupid, fool, fascist bitch etc. Perez Hilton's characterization of Miss California is a case in point.

Yep, that is idenity democracy.

[_why me]

It is no surprise that the young generation supports gay marriage. They have been bombarded with gay imaging on MTV and on reality shows. Plus, it is difficult to find a rock star who is against gay marriage or a movie star. I have seen reality shows where bi-sexuality is stressed as the main participant seeks to find love either from a man or woman. And so, it is no surprise that young people are more lax about gays and gay marriage. The media has done a wonderful brainwash job. And so, yes, you are correct on that point. But as they get older they may lose their support of gay marriage.

Let's go back to 1965 on the eve of the passage of the civil rights act. How would those who oppose civil rights sound...

It is no surprise that the young generation supports civil rights for blacks. They have been bombarded with black imaging on TV. Plus, it is difficult to find a rock and roll star who is against civil rights or a movie star. I have seen TV shows where blacks portray characters who aren't maids or porters. And so, it is no surprise that young people are more lax about civil rights for blacks. The media has done a wonderful brainwash job. And so, yes, you are correct on that point. But as they get older they may lose their support of civil rights for blacks.

Nice try. But there is a difference. Gay marriage challenges current definitions of family as being between a man and a woman. Now of course, since the advent of common consent divorce there are many types of families. But the concept of the nuclear family was not challenged until recently. And I might add that the 1960's brought about the first inroads in destroying family life and we are seeing just one more step in that direction with same sex marriage. The traditional family is under attack once more but it has been now for a couple of decades by other forces. And we can see the chaos around us.

And of course, for religious people, the Bible does not sanction the gay lifestyle nor gay marriage.

[Anonymous]

I can list off the top of my head, at least 10 cases of high profile child abuse cases that have been reported in the last, say, 2 weeks. Cases where a mother pushed her children off a bridge, a mother who smothered her child and buried him in playground sand, where a 3 year old was sexually assaulted in a 24 hour period by an adult male who picked her up near her home, the new case of a missing 5 year old whose mother was knowingly living with a registered sex offender (yeah, you read that right) and not long ago the 8 year old sexually assaulted (raped with a screw driver) and killed by a sunday school teacher who investigators now tie to two previous poisonings (one of a child), and the father (on PCP) who ATE his 4 year old child's eye out of his living skull.

None of these crimes perpetrated by gays. Not one.

I could go on, but why bother? The religious community isn't responding to these high profile child abuse cases and that includes the LDS church.

The hetero:gay ratio itself guarantees that hetero's carry out the highest percentage of crimes in the country (world) and yet, there are people harping on gays for what? For the breakdown of society as we know it?

I've got news for y'all, society is breaking down around you and the sins are being perpetrated on the heads of our own children.

Where is the religious outcry for THAT? What about this "brothers keeper" business? Instead of nosing around in the lives of gays, how about keeping the children safe for starters?

Sorry if this comes off as a rant, it makes me so utterly angry.

Me too.
During the Prop 8 campaign, it was sickening to hear of the millions of dollars and energy wasted in banning same sex marriage. All Prop 8 did was slow it down. Imagine if Mormons had used all those resources and efforts to help fight abuse against women and children, finding cures for diseases, feeding the hungry, building schools/education, relief for victims of disaster, etc.???

Even if a person views homsexual behavior as a sin/immoral, I don't understand why Mormons would donate so much money to this issue when there are so many crimes against humanity that should take presedence.

[_Ray A]

The traditional family is under attack once more but it has been now for a couple of decades by other forces. And we can see the chaos around us.

And of course, for religious people, the Bible does not sanction the gay lifestyle nor gay marriage.

And in what way has Gay marriage contributed to this attack? You mean a 50% divorce rate in America is caused by "Gay marriage"?