The MADness of the gay marriage debate

[_Phouchg]

Oh, and "traditional marriage"? Like traditional marriage where women and children were considered property of the man of the family? The Leave-it-to-Beaver Pleasantville image that TBMs have of what a family ought to be are fictions created by the media of the past 60 years.

Marriage at its core is a man-made institution that was created mostly as a means to enforce property rights law.The concept of romantic marriage and love is barely a century old.

fook

[_why me]

Again, could someone please tell me how my neighbors are destroying the world? Tell me how they are following Satan? Explain how they are hurting ANYONE!

Oh, and did I mention two of these children were adopted from an orphanage in Siberia?

~td~

Well, I cannot say that that particular family is destroying the world. But they are weakening the traditional family. Also, although it may seem nice and sweet, I cannot say that it adds stability to our society. No society can survive an ' anything goes' approach. I see no example in the Bible that god would sanction such a family.

The hurt comes indirectly as society breaks down because we have no universal values or universal understandings. I like to watch Ellen de Generes but I also know that she has an agenda. Get people to see the gay lifestyle as being more than normal and in the process give away a lot of presents on her show.

And all guests must kowtow to her and her agenda.

[_why me]

And of course, for religious people, the Bible does not sanction the gay lifestyle nor gay marriage.

And of course, for religious Mormon People, the Book of Mormon does Not sanction the Polygamous lifestyle nor Plural Marriage.

The Lord God intended for Marriage to be between one man and one woman.

I think that god was rather smart to command plural marriage. Many beautiful people came from those marriages and a righteous seed was raised up to praise god. It made the LDS church stronger and the saints more faithful. Where would the LDS church be now if there were no plural marriage in its history? Who knows.

[_why me]

It is just one more step on the ladder toward undermining the nuclear family. In some classrooms, those children with a traditional family are in a minority. Gay marriage is just one more step in redefining the nuclear family. Gay marriage has not led to the 50% divorce rate but it does put into question once more the notion of the nuclear family as between a man and a woman who are married together.

So you're saying that if my child is taught this, he/she will likely become homosexual? You really think that teaching tolerance towards Gay people is going to make my child homosexual? Did the whites who advocated racial equality turn Black?

My children were all taught about gender equality in government schools. They are all heterosexual.

So where's the bogeyman?

Where in my post would you get that idea? My point is that the traditional family is eroding and gay marriage is just one more rung in the erosion process. Nothing good can come from it. And our societies will experience more turmoil from such postmodern ideas and its
idenitity focused social and political values

[_Analytics]

Well, I cannot say that that particular family is destroying the world. But they are weakening the traditional family.

What does it mean to weaken "the" traditional family? Is your family more weak because of this? Specifically, whose family is more weak, and how so?

Also, although it may seem nice and sweet, I cannot say that it adds stability to our society.

Our society would be more stable if they didn't live together and take care of each other and their kids? It would be more stable ir children were still in the Siberia orphanage? How so?

No society can survive an ' anything goes' approach.

This isn't any anything goes approach.

I see no example in the Bible that god would sanction such a family.

I can see examples in the Bible of God sanctioning all sorts of terrible things. So what?

The hurt comes indirectly as society breaks down because we have no universal values or universal understandings.

Are you saying that if we disagree about whether or not the penis and the vaginia are the most important elements that define acceptable families that we can't have any universal values or understandings?

[_Ray A]

Where in my post would you get that idea? My point is that the traditional family is eroding and gay marriage is just one more rung in the erosion process. Nothing good can come from it. And our societies will experience more turmoil from such postmodern ideas and its
idenitity focused social and political values

That "one rung" is getting extraordinary attention in Mormon circles, that it has become an obsession. Check out This thread.

It is high time we extract ourselves from the banal slippery slope of social degredation.

Thanks, -Wade Englund-

You'd think that Wade agrees with Buttars that this is the most serious social threat to America, while all of the crime statistics show otherwise.

I can scarcely think of a more misguided notion and unhealthy obsession.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Why Me,

Well, I cannot say that that particular family is destroying the world. But they are weakening the traditional family.

What traditional family are they destroying?

There are lots of families who may not have a mother, father, and children.

How about a family with one parent deceased? Are they hurting "traditional families" because they don't fit the LDS model?

How about a family whose children are grown? You know, just a couple in the home? Are they destroying the "traditional family"? Will society be harmed by seeing parents without children?

How about a family with extended family members living in the home? Again, this doesn't fit the LDS model so are they harmful to society and destroying morality?

How about grandparents who are raising their grandchildren? Are the grandparents someone followers of Satan? Will children see this unusual family and fall apart?

My point is, a family is a family. And, I fail to see how a family that loves and supports each other but that doesn't fit the LDS mold is harmful in any way.

Also, although it may seem nice and sweet, I cannot say that it adds stability to our society.

It adds stability in the same way a father and mother with children add stability to society. No difference whatsoever. Can you not see how these children benefit from being in a family, raised in a loving home, supported and cared for by two incredible parents?

No society can survive an "anything goes" approach.

Who is talking about an "anything goes approach? We are talking about a family whose parents believe they will benefit by having a marriage certificate.

I see no example in the Bible that god would sanction such a family.

As analytics has stated, the Bible is not a good indicator of morality. Talk about an "anything goes" approach.

The hurt comes indirectly as society breaks down because we have no universal values or universal understandings.

You mean society breaks down because everyone is not LDS?

I think this whole argument against SSM has nothing whatsoever to do with society and everything to do with some make-believe archaic nonsense rooted in fear.

~td~

[_Rollo Tomasi]

Most LDS are taking a look at what is going on around them... and they don't like what they see.

I've lived long enough to recall how many LDS felt the same way about blacks and civil rights (as well as the priesthood ban). LDS have always been out of touch with reality and progress. This latest issue is just more of the same.

[_Rollo Tomasi]

The traditional family is under attack once more but it has been now for a couple of decades by other forces. And we can see the chaos around us.

The "traditional family" in early Mormonism was polygamy, not monogamy. That's the irony you are missing here.

And of course, for religious people, the Bible does not sanction the gay lifestyle nor gay marriage.

But which does sanction polygamy?

[_Rollo Tomasi]

This poster from MAD makes a great point I wanted to share. I just had this exact conversation with a family member who supports equal rights for gays in civil unions but is strongly opposed to same sex marriage, believing it will bring destruction upon the traditional family. Her views are illogical. What further damage to society would follow allowing them to "marry" vs. civil unions with equal rights?

So for the Prop 8 supporters on this board, do you also oppose equal rights for gays in civil unions and any gay couple from adopting or raising children?

I think this is spot-on. It seems the fight in CA has narrowed the issue to one of simple semantics: civil union vs. marriage. If this has become the last stand for the Church (which is suggested by its "welcomed" PR release yesterday), then the Church has already lost the war. I note that the Church has been very coy about its stand on civil unions for gay couples (whereas, in contrast, it has been very vocal against gay marriage). As far as I know, in CA and other battleground states the Church has not come out publicly and opposed civil unions, just marriage.

But the official position as stated in the non-public CHI strongly suggests that the Church DOES oppose any form of civil union (see bolded portions below):

Marriage between a man and a woman is ordained of God. The Church accordingly opposes same-sex marriages and any efforts to legalize such marriages. Church members are encouraged to "appeal to legislators, judges, and other government officials to preserve the purposes and sanctity of marriage between a man and a woman, and to reject all efforts to give legal authorization or other official approval or support to marriages between persons of the same gender." (citation omitted).

As a doctrinal principle, based on the scriptures, the Church affirms that marriage between a man and a woman is essential to God's plan for the eternal destiny of His children. The powers of procreation are to be exercised only between a man and a woman who are lawfully wedded as husband and wife.

Any other sexual relations, including those between persons of the same gender, undermine the divinely created institution of the family. The Church accordingly favors measures that define marriage as the union of a man and a woman and that do not confer legal status on any other relationship.

While opposing same-gender marriage, the Church reaches out with understanding and respect to individuals who are attracted to those of the same gender.

Book I, CHI (2006), pp. 187-88 (bold added for emphasis).

Utah Gov. Jon Hunstman recently came out in favor of civil unions. Does anyone know what the Church has said in this regard (other than the above quote)?