The MADness of the gay marriage debate

[_The Dude]

Yes, I could have been more circumspect in the way I phrased my point (by the way, I disagree with your assessment that the current generational gap does not indicate future support of gay marriage, but I’ll talk more about that later).

I should have been more clear. I agree the generation gap is data in your favor and against them, but it is certainly not enough data to justify your tone. And of course, being a critic, you can't get away with that bluster like apologists do every hour of the day.

[_Dr. Shades]

What I didn’t fully realise is the extent of the whimsical nature of moderation on MAD.

???

With all due respect, sir, how on earth could you have possibly **NOT** fully realized the extent of it??

The other spectacle was Wade Englund, and he deserves far less compassion than Charity. . . He later claimed to have reformed himself, and felt more compassionate. He “really” wanted to “understand” and empathise with ex-Mormons. I believed him, . . .

Just curious, but why on earth did you believe him??

Wade must think we are all naïve simpletons, but little by little, we see can see that he’s really just as intolerant now as he was on Z. . . In spite of his affectation and claims of “compassion”, this is only lip service; Wade is really as anti-anti-Mormon as they come, . . . Wade dresses up his disdain with “compassion” and “understanding”.

Ray, my man, what else did you expect? This is WADE we're talking about here.

[_Ray A]

With all due respect, sir, how on earth could you have possibly **NOT** fully realized the extent of it??

In all honesty, because I'd never so closely examined a MAD banning/suspension as I did beastie's. I know the Dude got banned, but I didn't examine the full circumstances of his banning. Sometimes you don't realise things, and in this case I plead gulity to naïvété. Of course, I believed this was "true", but now I know it's true.

Just curious, but why on earth did you believe him??

The Wade of Z and the "new Wade" did genuinely seem different to me. I think at one stage he was genuinely more tolerant, and trying to understand, but in recent times he seems to have gone back to his old intolerant self. His language still isn't quite as harsh as when he was on Z., but the sentiments are the same. What I understand now is that Wade really isn't interested in genuine alternative opinions, nor even considering that he may be wrong and others right. He's a one man band on a mission to vindicate Mormonism at any cost.

[_Seven]

Gay marriage is just one step on the ladder in the breakdown of the traditional family.

Nice try. But there is a difference. Gay marriage challenges current definitions of family as being between a man and a woman. Now of course, since the advent of common consent divorce there are many types of families. But the concept of the nuclear family was not challenged until recently. And I might add that the 1960's brought about the first inroads in destroying family life and we are seeing just one more step in that direction with same sex marriage. The traditional family is under attack once more but it has been now for a couple of decades by other forces. And we can see the chaos around us.

If God cares so much about having this ideal traditional family with a man providing and presiding and the woman home nurturing, then why does he leave millions of children to be orphaned from the tsunami, disease, earthquakes, mothers who die in childbirth, etc. ????? Surely God could intervene in preventing these situations without affecting anyone’s agency.


1500 women die every day in Africa from childbirth complications. That’s over half a million women a year just in Africa who leave these babies motherless.
Then there are the millions of children in Africa who are orphans from parents acquiring AIDS. Many innocent women are victims to this incurable disease through rape or unfaithful husbands.

In India, the numbers are also staggering for children left motherless.

A woman dies every seven minutes in India, says the latest UNICEF report. According to the report, 78,000 women die annually in India due to complications arising out of pregnancy and childbirth. Uttar Pradesh, Uttarakhand, Bihar, Jharkhand, Orissa, Madhya Pradesh, Chhattisgarh, Rajasthan and Assam account for more than two-thirds of all maternal deaths. While two-thirds of all maternal deaths occur in just 10 countries, India and Nigeria together account for one-third of maternal deaths worldwide.
The UNICEF’s flagship report, State of the World’s Children (2009), was released in the Capital on Thursday. While India has managed to bring down the infant and child mortality rate, maternal mortality figures continue to present a grim picture. As per the report, under-five mortality rate has gone down from 117 per 1,000 live births in 1990 to 72 in 2007. However, maternal mortality is still close to the 2001-03 figure of 301 for every 100,000 live births, which is way off the desirable target of 109 by 2015.

Right now, 60 million orphans in this world are suffering from hunger.

**143 Million Orphans In The World** Today there are more than 143 million orphans in the world; and every two seconds another child becomes an orphan. 42,000 new orphans every day 400,000 orphans die every year due to malnutrition 70% say that food is their greatest need 60 million orphans go to bed hungry Sixty million orphans cry themselves to sleep every night with pain in their empty bellies ... alone, scared, and hungry. A lack of food is the orphan's biggest problem. Every 90 seconds, another orphan dies from malnutrition.

How about all the orphans from the tsunami?

more pictures here (warning-some of the pictures on this link show children crying next to their deceased parents)

From Tragedy to Slavery
By Juliette Terzieff, AlterNet. Posted January 24, 2005.

The children orphaned by the Asian tsunami are becoming easy targets for human trafficking rings.



Having survived the terrible wrath of nature, the youngest survivors of the Asian tsunami are faced with a new peril: child trafficking. In recent weeks, there have been numerous reports of international trafficking and illegal adoption rings looking to exploit the thousands of traumatized children separated from family members.
While accurate numbers remain hard to come by, the United Nations estimates 1.5 million children were affected when killer waves swamped 13 Asian nations wiping out 220,000 people on Dec. 26. According to official estimates, as many as 50,000 children have lost one or both parents.

A Child Trafficker's Paradise
The first official case of trafficking last week involved a 4-year old boy from Banda Aceh in Indonesia. Aid workers became suspicious of the couple accompanying the child when he arrived at a hospital in Medan – a well-known departure point for smugglers taking children out of Indonesia. The couple first told medical professionals they were the boy's parents, but subsequently claimed to be his neighbors. In this case, authorities soon stepped in to take custody of the boy. Since then Indonesian aid agencies have reported 10 attempted cases of child-trafficking.
There are alarming signs that other children may not be as lucky. A UNICEF worker in Malaysia, for example, received an e-mail offering 300 orphans up for adoption. It assured the recipient that all paperwork would be "taken care of." Indonesian authorities also confirmed reports that dozens of young children were ferried out of Sumatra by unknown adults in early January – before the government slapped a ban on the removal of children under the age of 16 from the country.

Seems God is the one attacking the traditional family more than anyone.

[_Ray A]

On the same thread in which beastie was suspended we have this from selek in reply to Darin:

http://www.mormonapologetics.org/index.php?s=&showtopic=43489&view=findpost&p=1208666439

A quick correction- the boy was thirteen, not eleven- and his name was Jesse Dir khising. As a word of warning, whatever you do, DO NOT Google 'boy gagged with underwear'. Darin's brothers-in-arms are somewhat enamored of this after-school activity and have been... um... prolific...with thier video cameras.

Darin's reply:

Once again, Selek, why the low blow...? "Darin's brothers-in-arms"...? Seriously...?

Selek: Group: Spam Buster
Posts: 8673

I'm done with MAD, because if I reply to him and say what I really want to say I'll be banned (keeping account open for reading purposes only).

[_JAK]

Seven,

Your points are all good and clearly demonstrate that the attack on same-sex unions is trivial in comparison with your examples.

However, yet another question is not addressed in what appears an assumption in your comments.

seven stated:
If God cares so much about having this ideal traditional family with a man providing and presiding and the woman home nurturing, then why does he leave millions of children to be orphaned from the tsunami, disease, earthquakes, mothers who die in childbirth, etc. ????? Surely God could intervene in preventing these situations without affecting anyone’s agency.

why me makes assumptions about “…family…” in this:
“The traditional family is under attack once more but it has been now for a couple of decades by other forces. And we can see the chaos around us.”

Your comment, seven, implies or assumes God.

You appear to continue that assumption in the following:

seven stated:
Seems God is the one attacking the traditional family more than anyone.

Your evidence and argument clearly demonstrate that great suffering dominates fully half of the human population. In history centuries ago, great suffering dominated an even larger percentage of the human population. Then, even the most educated, the most informed were ignorant about sanitation, germs, disease, and about how disease could be treated or prevented.

However, God arguments do not establish God. In addition, the wide variety of claims, doctrines, and dogmas are contradictory within a single religion Christianity. Christians don’t agree on God notions. Further, individual denominations are self-contradictory in their own claims.

To illustrate:

A list of Biblical Contradictions (1992)

Biblical Contradictions with documentation in specific biblical scripts

Biblical Contradictions and Absurdities

Currently, specific denominations are struggling with their official posture on same-sex unions.

Quite naturally, they use the same Bible to assert their postures. Add to that the shifting laws in particular states. CA approved same-sex unions. Then the same state opposed them. As a result, same sex unions which took place in a particular time period are regarded as legal unions (18,000).

Yet now, no same-sex unions will be recognized by CA. The issue for states and the law is unsettled presently.

Consider the complexity for the law when same-sex unions recognized in one state have a couple move to another state which does not recognize same-sex unions. The ramifications for transfer of wealth, ownership, health care, etc. are enormous.

JAK

[_beastie]

Yes, it's true - it's all Ray's fault.

Actually, that is the reason I posted again on MAD. Ray reasonably argued that I need to participate there to advertise, so to speak, my site. I still think it's a reasonable argument. But he's also correct that I am simply too opinionated to restrict posting ONLY on mesoamerican threads. Oh well. People earnestly looking for information about the placement of the Book of Mormon in Mesoamerica can find my site through google. Truth Dancer tried to convince me that blogging on my mesoamerican blog would help increase its hits, but I'm too lazy.

Regarding Wade: he just sprayed on some perfume, but he always smelled exactly like Wade.

Instead of being snarky about how gay marriage opponents have already lost and just don't know it, I should have asked Charity what she envisioned the wrath of god to look like. Maybe she's thinking like Jerry Falwell after 9/11, who declared that he blamed the gays and other horrible people for making God so mad he stopped protecting the US. So if gays get married, I guess we'll get hit by terrorists again and get all sorts of new and horrible diseases. Thanks a bunch, gays!!!!

[_Ray A]

Regarding Wade: he just sprayed on some perfume, but he always smelled exactly like Wade.

[_Brackite]

Marriage at its core is a man-made institution that was created mostly as a means to enforce property rights law.The concept of romantic marriage and love is barely a century old.

fook

Sorry, But I will have to disagree with that statement.

Here are the Following:

Joseph Campbell and the Power of Myth:


Love and the Goddess


Episode Summary

In the first half of this hour, Campbell describes the thirteenth century emergence of romantic love as an ideal. Before this time, marriage was considered a social contract, but the stories and myths of the troubadors talked of marriages based on love, and this created a cultural revolution.


He then goes on to discuss the Goddess and the archetype of the great mother. This figure has been present in all cultures in one form or another, and even when suppressed, has returned again and again in myth, religion, and popular culture. Campbell examines the history of this image and why the human mind seems to crave it so universally.

( Link: http://www.tv.com/joseph-campbell-and-t ... mmary.html )

Romantic love

"Romantic love" refers to the connection between "love" and the general idea of "romance," according to more traditional usages of the terms. Historically the term "romance" did not necessarily imply love relationships, but rather was seen as an artistic expression of one's innermost desires; sometimes including love, sometimes not.

The romantic love of knights and damsels, called courtly love, emerged in the early medieval ages (eleventh century France), derived from Platonic, Aristotelian love, and the writings of the Roman poet, Ovid (and his ars amatoria).

...

History and definition

Courtly love, a term first popularized by Gaston Paris in 1883 and closely related to the concept of romantic love, was a medieval European notion of the ennobling love which found its genesis in the ducal and princely courts of present-day southern France at the end of the eleventh century, and which had a civilizing effect on knightly behavior. In essence, the concept of courtly love sought to reconcile erotic desire and spiritual attainment, "a love at once illicit and morally elevating, passionate and self-disciplined, humiliating and exalting, human and transcendent". [3]

Courtly love saw high born women as an ennobling spiritual and moral force, a view that was in opposition to ecclesiastical sexual attitudes. Rather than being critical the mutual desire between men and women as sinful, the poets and bards praised it as the highest good. The Church, on the other hand, saw the purpose of marriage (finally declared a sacrament of the Church at the Fourth Lateran Council in 1215) as procreation—with any sexual relations beyond that purpose seen as contrary to Christian values. Thus, romantic love, at the root of courtly love, resembles the modern concept of true love, in which such piety has become much less of an issue, at least in post-Reformation Christianity.

Romantic love distinguishes moments and situations within interpersonal relationships. Initially, the concept emphasized emotions (especially those of affection, intimacy, compassion, appreciation, and general "liking") rather than sexual pleasure. But, romantic love, in the abstract sense of the term, is traditionally referred to as involving a mix of emotional and sexual desire for another person.

...

3. ↑ Francis X. Newman, ed. 1968. The Meaning of Courtly Love, vii.

( Link: http://www.newworldencyclopedia.org/entry/Romantic_love )

Comparative mythologist Joseph Campbell also seemed to regard the ideal of romantic love as distinctively Western, although praiseworthy. He traced the ideal of an emotional and committed partnership to notions of courtly love such as those found in the legends of King Arthur and the Knights of the Round Table, which emerged in Europe during the Middle Ages.

Perhaps there are particular ways of defining romantic love which make it seem like an invention of Western Culture. However, the desire for love is not a Western invention. Buss (1994) summarized modern research this way:

Feelings of love are not recent products of particular Western views. Romantic love is universal. Love thoughts, emotions, and actions are experienced by people in all known cultures, from the Zulu tribe in the southern tip of Africa to the Eskimos in the cold northern ice caps of Alaska. In the International Mate Selection Project [research on the Darwinian concept of evolution through mate selection] we found that "mutual attraction or love" was more desired than any other characteristic we examined. (p.18)

( Link: http://www.psywww.com/intropsych/ch16_s ... ssary.html )


Edited to add more information.

[_Ray A]

And selek continues, apparently privately admonished:

Darin, a far better person than you or I can hope to be has asked me to cut you some slack- so I'll clarify one point and walk away. I was not- either implicitly or explicitly- accusing you personally of engaging in or advocating on behalf of, child rape or murder. My point was- and remains- that for every tale of persecution and atrocity against gays that you can produce, reference, or invent, I can find one commited by gays. Your desperate need to maintain the victim status of gays is a manifestation of what I call the Jesse Jackson Principle. Victimhood is the only moral 'highground' your ideology can claim. Admission of wrong-doing on the part of your fellow travellers reduces that advantage, and as it is the only one you have, you are understandably loathe to part with it. That having been said, your approach is intellectually and rhetorically dishonest- and any victory you gain by dishonest means will be forever tainted- not to mention the corrosive effect it will have on your mind and soul. So...this is goodbye. Until you get your moral compass pointing back to north, I will have nothing further to do with you. And no, I don't believe your orientation is the particular lodestone skewing your path.

With Mormons like selek, who needs anti-Mormons? Steve Benson, pack your bags, go on a holiday to Tahiti, and rest assured that Mormonism will self-destruct.