What is a "spiritual witness?"

[_Nightlion]

Regardless of it's intent, after this life I intend to hunt it down (whatever it is) and kick it's ass. It has done more to destroy hope, ruin my life and dumb down the intellect of those I love and truly have an anxious concern for.

It's meddling should not be trusted. It's no different than the messages you might get from a fortune teller.

Buyer beware.

Awh, man, you need a huggie. Come here. Now look, see, you are the dumb ass. God will heal whom he will and your thinking you had a connection is what was flakey. You never sought the kingdom of God and his righteousness to begin with and only assumed like all the other Mormons, under a ton of condemnation, that you were hooked up.

You had been eating the drinking condemnation to your soul for a good ten-fifteen years before you waffled. That is serious business. Everyone in the LDS Church partakes of sacrament, recieves priesthood or goes to the temple unworthily. God will not be mocked.

YOU GOT TO GET IT RIGHT BEFORE YOU PROCEED THROUGH THE DOORS. Incompetent LDS leadership will let you go for money and sustaining votes. duh?

All the shame you feel is your own stupidity. Your arrogance at thinking you were it, when you were not it, brought you down. Go do the first works and stop blaming God.

PS (pimp slap) PS.............................PS...KA...............KA

[_Nightlion]

LOL You see, don't you, how ego retentive you are? Spirit witness or gifts have nothing to do with who you are and what you can do.
It comes from God. By his power you see, hear, feel, understand, speak, act, and testify. The power of God carries it own certification by its power of love, pure intelligence which manifests you are being wrought upon by God. In other words God is the means (organ) by which all things are done. Fear Him.

The God of Logic and Reason dictates that you are wrong and in need of Thorazine. Listen to this revelation and I pray you find peace.

Every day I am thinking, maybe its a prayer, that Mercury doesn't fall out of his wheel chair.

[_Inconceivable]

Awh, man, you need a huggie. Come here. Now look, see, you are the dumb ass. God will heal whom he will and your thinking you had a connection is what was flakey. You never sought the kingdom of God and his righteousness to begin with and only assumed like all the other Mormons, under a ton of condemnation, that you were hooked up.

You had been eating the drinking condemnation to your soul for a good ten-fifteen years before you waffled. That is serious business. Everyone in the LDS Church partakes of sacrament, recieves priesthood or goes to the temple unworthily. God will not be mocked.

YOU GOT TO GET IT RIGHT BEFORE YOU PROCEED THROUGH THE DOORS. Incompetent LDS leadership will let you go for money and sustaining votes. duh?

All the shame you feel is your own stupidity. Your arrogance at thinking you were it, when you were not it, brought you down. Go do the first works and stop blaming God.

PS (pimp slap) PS.............................PS...KA...............KA

I know what you're attempting to convey here (but you did a real poor job of it). I don't even want to know what pimp slap is, but then again, I don't ever see myself interested in what I assume appears on primetime MTV either.

Believing (hoping) that I was a neverwas distracts you from the reality of what I stated.

Re-read my first post in this thread a couple more times. Maybe you've never been connected spiritually the way I've described. I trusted it with my whole soul (and with the souls I stewarded) for most of my life. Either you are still attempting to develop this connection, or you're a lifelong poser due to your own darkened mind of unbelief.

Call me what you will, I understand your insecurity.

[_BishopRic]

I think your comparison has merit...but since we're dealing with a form of communication from another sphere of existence (allegedly), and the perceived message is that our religion is the one and only truth for all people, and another's message appears to be the same (for his religion), isn't it most likely that we are misinterpreting the message?

In other words, maybe you, uniquely, fit better as a libertarian, and another as a democrat, but as it relates to religious claims, Mormons and others claim God is not only telling them that their way is good for them, but for everybody else too (or that the others just need to be exterminated...).

So again, because of the dramatic and numerous contradictions, Occam's Razor seems to tell me that most, if not all, perceived spiritual witnesses of some sort of "truth" are not that at all. It's that simple mixture of hormones and circumstances that feel good...and we mistakenly project that as some sort of confirmation of historical truth.

A significant example of this for me was the Paul H. Dunn saga. I felt a spiritual witness quite strongly when I heard his talks...then learned later that they (many) were not true. That "tilt" made me re-think the process.

But maybe I'm just being too logical?

If I am misinterpreting the message then the message is incredibly flawed. Visions, dreams, revelations, and all the rest all sharing the wrong message or one so easily misinterpreted that I missed it all. If God is that clumsy then I don't fear being wrong. He's the one who messed up.

I think I feel more strongly then that. I am a libertarian and think my version of it is best for everyone and that others are largely mistaken. Admittedly I don't approach this with the same fervor as my religious beliefs like Droopy does.

Occam's Razor tells me that my subconscious mind is not this smart to see the future the way I have, learn the insights I have, or conjure up experiences that so understand objective reality.

But my (hopefully) final question is, when one from another faith says something essentially identical to what you just said, and it (the "message from God") is totally contradictory to what you have received...and he is just as, if not more convinced than you that it is from God, what is your analysis of his experience?

I know I'm pushing here...and maybe the only answer is the one every Mormon tells me ("I can only speak for my own experience..."); but it seems that there MUST be at least a subtle thought that "mine is really from God...his is not." No?

If not, doesn't that look like denial?

If so, does it not spark a little curiousity as to how many of other faiths are so committed they give/end their lives for their conviction?

[_Brackite]

I still have questions about the one true Church and what does that mean exactly. But I can't deny that the spiritual realm exists. A spiritual witness is spiritual communication. We truly are eternal spirits that are in a temporary human state. But much of that world is hidden from us for the most part. And yet sometimes it seems we end up connecting with it anyway. From my limited experience, the spirit world is a much happier place than we are in now. So what good did it do me to have reconnected with this world? It gave me a view of a world so much better than the one I'm in that I couldn't help but be happier just by knowing it exists. It's truly an amazing experience. Mine was born out of tragedy. I'm not sure it's something you can force. Maybe it is, maybe it isn't. I guess for now we just appreciate it if it happens, and make the best of it if it doesn't. But we'll all die some day. Once you peel away all your human self, your spirit is all that's left, hence we'll all appreciate it some day one way or another.

Some things I can find spiritual witnesses to their truth very easily. Some things I just get a blank and simply don't know.

I can relate to much of what you say here. I think most of us have experiences that we seem inclined to label and interpret. These experiences are very subjective...but certainly real.

But I think we may be mistaken when we attach the experience with a meaning...and I think we do it because others before us (parents, teachers) did it and told us how we should interpret it. The reason I think we may be wrong in our conclusions is that so many different and unrelated cultures have similar experiences and attach meanings that are in stark contrast to ours.

NDEs (near death experiences) are one example. I studied them quite a bit years ago, and what was clear was that those who described them were consistent with what they expected. Mormons see their families in white and/or Jesus. Buddhists don't.

So again, it seems we should go deeper and really ask ourselves what is real...and what is our molded perception of the experience.

Hello,

I consider Ray A our expert on near-death experiences, here on the Mormon Discussions' Message Board.
Here are Links to a couple of his near-death experiences Threads:

An Interesting Encounter With A Young Lady.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8259

Continued: The Debate With marg on NDEs.
viewtopic.php?f=1&t=8458


Here is Part of His Opening Post, From The 'Continued: The Debate With marg on NDEs.', Thread:

Let's see if you are open minded enough to carefully read just two links:

Start with a very basic one from Wiki. (Don't be selective, read it all in context)

And a little more complicated: NDERF. (There is some "New Age" stuff in this one, but also scientific articles, and 1,800 NDEs)

[_The Nehor]

But my (hopefully) final question is, when one from another faith says something essentially identical to what you just said, and it (the "message from God") is totally contradictory to what you have received...and he is just as, if not more convinced than you that it is from God, what is your analysis of his experience?

I know I'm pushing here...and maybe the only answer is the one every Mormon tells me ("I can only speak for my own experience..."); but it seems that there MUST be at least a subtle thought that "mine is really from God...his is not." No?

If not, doesn't that look like denial?

If so, does it not spark a little curiousity as to how many of other faiths are so committed they give/end their lives for their conviction?

This has never come up. I've never heard anyone describe anything that's essentially identical to what converted me.

Mine was from God. Whatever happened to him is between him and God whether it's a lie, an exaggeration, misinterpreted, or authentic. I don't analyze it. I can't. I don't have the data. I can analyze mine and mine alone.

I also rarely hear of the equivalent of an LDS conversion story outside of it. In other faiths it seems to be and exception and not the rule.

People have been giving their life for lies since the beginning of time. People have given their life over to stupid causes since the beginning of time. Being willing to die for something is not that impressive.

[_Inconceivable]

and it (the "message from God") is totally contradictory to what you have received

Good questions, Bishop,

I got a few too:

We assume God has a perfect command of all languages.

Then why is it so damned difficult for Him to convey a simple message without screwing most of them up?

Who's fault is it?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTkgwT4s ... annel_page


Think about it.

[_Nightlion]

Believing (hoping) that I was a neverwas distracts you from the reality of what I stated.

So you were a bishop or more. The LDS apostles are 100% incompetent. Somehow you got it right? No! You were fully given to beieve that you had it right. The arrogance of it makes you think so still.

Just a little doctrine if you will. Those who get it right and turn altogether away holding God up to open shame fall hard to Son of Perdition. I do not think that of you. You do not even think that of you.
I have an older brother who talks worse than you about meeting God. Ergo my armadillo hide against these here kecklers.

Re-read my first post in this thread a couple more times. Maybe you've never been connected spiritually the way I've described. I trusted it with my whole soul (and with the souls I stewarded) for most of my life. Either you are still attempting to develop this connection, or you're a lifelong poser due to your own darkened mind of unbelief.

My wife suffered a brain hemorage last year. I got her to a hospital and as she was slipping away I touched her with the hand of faith. After many tests they could not find the cause. Yet there was a pool of blood in her sub arachnoid membrain. She is fine. Thank you.

Call me what you will, I understand your insecurity.

I might be stupid and callous but insecure? I am not the goofball others insist I must be. I know perfectly well what I am talking about even though I have to keep an entertaining edge. I even enjoy the dramatic.

When something fails that is of great worth, snit for a little while then start over. You would do that with a car. Do it with your soul.

You got a "Master Mechanic" talking to you. Make the most of it.

[_The Nehor]

So you were a bishop or more. The LDS apostles are 100% incompetent.

You have so much in common yet you rail against them?

Somehow you got it right? No!

Exactly what I was going to ask you...with the same answer.

You were fully given to beieve that you had it right. The arrogance of it makes you think so still.

Physician, heal thyself.

Just a little doctrine if you will. Those who get it right and turn altogether away holding God up to open shame fall hard to Son of Perdition. I do not think that of you. You do not even think that of you.

So if you disbelieve in the words of the great Mt. Olympus you will fall in flames. For so it has been and so it is written....on the doorway to paradise, that those who falter and those who fall....must pay the price......

I have an older brother who talks worse than you about meeting God. Ergo my armadillo hide against these here kecklers.

Carrying this analogy to it's logical conclusion....if you have armadillo hide that means you're like an armadillo which means you're probably roadkill.

My wife suffered a brain hemorage last year. I got her to a hospital and as she was slipping away I touched her with the hand of faith. After many tests they could not find the cause. Yet there was a pool of blood in her sub arachnoid membrain. She is fine. Thank you.

Glad to hear it. Does she believe you?

I might be stupid and callous but insecure?

Yep. All three.

I am not the goofball others insist I must be. I know perfectly well what I am talking about even though I have to keep an entertaining edge. I even enjoy the dramatic.

Why do you have to keep an entertaining edge? To maintain whatever is left that you call your sanity.

When something fails that is of great worth, snit for a little while then start over. You would do that with a car. Do it with your soul.

Buy a new one?

You got a "Master Mechanic" talking to you. Make the most of it.

My Civic is making a weird humming noise. I think it's coming from the radiator. Is it going to explode?

[_Inconceivable]

Re-read my first post in this thread a couple more times. Maybe you've never been connected spiritually the way I've described. I trusted it with my whole soul (and with the souls I stewarded) for most of my life. Either you are still attempting to develop this connection, or you're a lifelong poser due to your own darkened mind of unbelief.

My wife suffered a brain hemorage last year. I got her to a hospital and as she was slipping away I touched her with the hand of faith. After many tests they could not find the cause. Yet there was a pool of blood in her sub arachnoid membrain. She is fine. Thank you.

Are you trying to say that you gave her a priesthood healing blessing? Did your God command her to be healed through you or did you just ask? What was the connection? The connection is what I'm refering to, not a lucky wish or a man begging for his wife's life.

Even a broken clock is right twice in a day.