Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_DonBradley]

Oliver Cowdery's opinion on the relationship between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger has been brought up as evidence for the nature of that relationship. To weigh the significance of Cowdery's statement, there are a couple things we need to consider.

First and most importantly, would he have considered a secret polygamous marriage to be a "dirty, nasty, filthy affair"? I think he would have. He completely disapproved of polygamy, as his later comments on post-Nauvoo polygamy show. He may therefore, like many current Latter-day Saints, have viewed unlawful polygamy (and to him it was all unlawful) as adultery.

Second, what was the meaning of the word "affair" in the context of the time? The 1828 Webster's ( http://1828.mshaffer.com/d/search/word,affair )doesn't indicate that the word then had its modern connotation of a secret, illicit sexual or romantic relationship. But perhaps it did.

The Oxford English Dictionary doesn't show how early this usage began. The closest definition it has to this is as follows:

3. sing. Vaguely, and with intentional indefiniteness, of any proceeding which it is not wished to name or characterize closely; as a military ‘action’ or engagement of undefined character, a political job, a duel (affair of honour), an intrigue (affair of love), etc.

1702 STEELE Funeral I. (1704) 21 To marry a Woman after an Affair with her. 1732 BERKELEY Minute Philos (1732) I. 46 In our Dialect a vicious Man is a Man of pleasure..a Lady is said to have an affair, a Gentleman to be a gallant, a Rogue in business to be one that knows the world. 1741 MIDDLETON Cicero (ed. 3) II. vii. 196 After the affair of Pindenissum, an exploit of more éclat and importance. 1753 HANWAY Trav. (1762) II. I. i. 3 The french..calling it an affair of honor. 1774 MRS. CHAPONE Improv. Mind I. 182 If your friend should..intend to carry on an affair of love. 1816 SCOTT Old Mort. xvii. (1868) 730 The enemy persevered in their attackthe affair was fiercely disputed. 1826 DISRAELI Viv. Grey VII. viii. 434 Every affair of any character during the late war was fought over again in the tent. 1837 DICKENS Pickw. ii. 20 ‘I want your assistance..in an affair of honour,’ said Mr. Winkle. 1855 MACAULAY Hist. Eng. III. 216 The strenuous opposition..offered to the government..in the affair of Wood's patent. 1922 JOYCE Ulysses 230 The annual dinner you know. Boiled shirt affair. 1933 N. COWARD Design for Living I. 19 We could carry on a backstairs affair for weeks without saying a word about it.


So, despite all that it is read into Cowdery's statement, the word "affair" may not have carried any connotation that the relationship was a sexual dalliance and not a secret marriage.

This meaning of this term at the time merits further exploration.

Don

[_DarkHelmet]

This all comes down to one question. Do you believe Joseph Smith was a prophet? If the answer is yes, then nothing he did could possibly be bad or wrong. If the answer to that question is no, then Joseph Smith had some serious morality issues.

[_why me]

It doesn't seem that Fanny was much troubled by the whole thing. I tend to refer to Fanny who spoke no evil of Joseph even after leaving the saint's settlement and moving with her relatives. Nor did she speak evil of him after he was murdered. And to my knowledge, Joseph Smith asked her parents for permission of the sealing---nothing dirty or sneaky about that. Also, Oliver's mention of the dirty little nasty affair occured in 1838. What exactly did he mean by that is unclear. For one thing, it is known that fanny's parents looked upon the marriage as an honor and supported the marriage. They had no problems with it. And neither did fanny since she never to my knowledge said a negative word about Joseph Smith.

[_silentkid]

Second, what was the meaning of the word "affair" in the context of the time?

I'm actually more interested in the "dirty, nasty, filthy" part of the quote. Those are some harsh adjectives. Those words are usually reserved for those adult pay-per-view movies.

[_DonBradley]

Second, what was the meaning of the word "affair" in the context of the time?

I'm actually more interested in the "dirty, nasty, filthy" part of the quote. Those are some harsh adjectives. Those words are usually reserved for those adult pay-per-view movies.

LOL!

Yes. I think the word "affair" here may have been a neutral word, like "matter." But the "dirty, nasty, filthy" label carries a very clear judgment on the morality of the whole "affair."

Don

[_why me]

Yes. I think the word "affair" here may have been a neutral word, like "matter." But the "dirty, nasty, filthy" label carries a very clear judgment on the morality of the whole "affair."

Don

Oliver had a problem with Joseph when he wrote that in his letter. I tend to look at it from that point of view. People often vent their frustration in words that may not be complimentary. I would call such words as Oliver used, stress relievers. But Fanny's parents or Fanny had no problem with the sealing. And the parents found it to be an honor that fanny was adopted into the family of Joseph Smith.

[_Roger]

Don:

The Article on Marriage plainly refers to more than vague rumors--it acknowledges that the church has "been reproached by the crime" of fornication and polygamy. And if Joseph Smith's relationship with Fanny had been circulated so widely as to require a denial to the world via the Doctrine and Covenants, it seems a tad likely that Emma would have known about it too!

How do you make that leap? If there were rumors circulating do you think it likely that Emma actually believed them? I don't. I think her explosion was the byproduct of finally realizing that the rumors had merit.

Yet all the accounts say that Emma kicked Fanny out when she discovered the relationship, not that she put up with it for several months first.

Again where do you come up with the idea that she "put up with it for several months first"? I don't think she knew about it and I think she wanted to disbelieve the rumors.

The strong implication is that the relationship that necessitated the August 1835 denial was not that between Joseph Smith and Fanny Alger.

If you're only basing that on your supposition that Emma would not have tolerated a marriage I just don't see it. Again, I seriously doubt she would have been privy to that information--should a sealing have actually taken place--and, if I'm right about that, it very nicely explains the explosion when she was confronted with reality.

And it would be poor reasoning to argue that because you don't know of any other relationships or incidents that would necessitate such a denial, no others occurred.

I agree but at the same time I am reluctant to claim omniscience.

Just how much do you know about this period in Mormon history, including who was accused of what?

Probably not enough and very likely not as much as you do. That's precisely why I asked:

So then if this article is not refering to Joseph's then current relationship with Fanny, what is it refering to? Who besides Joseph Smith had any business entering into plural marriages in 1835 and why would any other aberrant member's action bring such "reproach" to the church as a whole to necessitate an article condemning "fornication and polygamy" to be voted on and ratified?

Am I correct in concluding you also have no answer? From this, it appears so:

I agree, by the way, that something must have sparked the 1835 statement--some sort of polygamous relationship. Brian Hales is publishing a piece with the Journal of Mormon History showing, among other things, that Joseph's relationship with Fanny was not the only talk of polygamy in Kirtland--that others were attempting to enter the practice independent of Joseph Smith. And I have my own ideas on what prompted the 1835 Article, which are still in the works.

Don

Fair enough. You may indeed be able to take the blame for D & C 101 off of Smith's shoulders. I will wait and see. Now if only Cowdery would have just written out an apology....

Anyway, thanks for the reply.

[_cinepro]

The authority to seal a marriage contract for eternity comes in addition to, not necessarily as an integral component of, the authorization to contract plural marriages.

I was commenting on the exchange between Nevo and Seven; for example, refer to Nevo's post entitled "Sealing Power Present in 1831".

I suppose there may be some nebulous "Power to Seal an Earthly Polygamous Marriage" that was granted to Joseph before 1836 (maybe Solomon appeared to him and conveyed it with a fist bump?).

But regarding the keys of the sealing power, and the sealing power itself, the Church says "Place: Kirtland Temple, Time:1836, Person: Elijah"

[_truth dancer]

What tickles my funny bone is the idea that we are discussing this as if God really came down and told Joseph Smith to screw his sixteen year old "adopted daughter"; as if there really were some sort of invisible, magical key that allowed Joseph Smith to have numerous sexual partners without suffering the consequences of other men who engage in similar behavior; as if Joseph Smith really had some mysterious power that gave him the right to have all the girls and women he wanted for eternity.



~td~

[_DarkHelmet]

It doesn't seem that Fanny was much troubled by the whole thing. I tend to refer to Fanny who spoke no evil of Joseph even after leaving the saint's settlement and moving with her relatives. Nor did she speak evil of him after he was murdered. And to my knowledge, Joseph Smith asked her parents for permission of the sealing---nothing dirty or sneaky about that.

Why would Fanny be troubled by the affair? She was the "other woman." Whenever there's a dirty, nasty affair, it's not the girlfriend who is upset with him. It's his wife. Did Emma have a problem with Joseph's polygamy?