Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

[_beastie]

Okay, let me try this again: I AM NOT GIVING AN APOLOGIST RESPONSE. I am given a critic response. It is the critic who sees this relationship as lusty and all about sex. Not me. However, I am turning the tables and bringing fanny into the picture as someone who could have said no but chose not to. Also, as the article I posted demonstrated, young women matured sexually early and some were prone to have premarital sex. But it is the critic who puts this relationship in the gutter not me.

Joseph Smith put it in the gutter when he was caught in the barn, having sexual relations with a woman behind his wife’s back, no matter what he called the relationship.

If it was all about sex as the critic says, then we will need to bring fanny into the picture. First, she was not troubled by the relationship. Second, to my knowledge, she never said a bad word about Joseph Smith. Third, she kept the happening to herself without guilt or remorse, to my understanding. Third, she married and had many children without being accused of bigomy.

How many times do I - and others – have to repeat ourselves before it will register with you? Perhaps if I BOLD all the words you’ll actually read them.

It is true that some females are very happy to have affairs with other women’s husbands. This is even more true when the husband in question is in a position of power in the given community, which Joseph Smith eventually was. So I do not doubt that some of his “wives” were very happy to have a secret relationship with him. Eliza Snow and Lucinda Morgan are two obvious examples.

However, that does not negate the reality that many of the females Joseph Smith went after were not naturally inclined to have a secretive relationship with him, even if it was called a “marriage”. Yet Joseph still sought those women, and convinced them by telling them things like they’d ensure their family’s salvation by entering into the relationship with him, or that an angel threatened his life, and giving them a very short amount of time to reply. Often these women were quite young and inexperienced. This was a clear abuse of power.

As to your other points, of course Fanny kept the relationship a secret. People who are having relationships with married individuals usually do. Even if she understood it to be a form of “marriage”, or spiritual wifery as I’ve concluded is a more appropriate term, she’d still keep it a secret, because the community in general was unaware of the practice and Joseph Smith vehemently denied that LDS were involved with anything other than monogamy.

Of course she wasn’t accused of bigamy. She never was formally married to Joseph Smith.

Whyme, your argument makes no sense at all, even if you’re trying to take the critical position.

[_harmony]

Okay, let me try this again: I AM NOT GIVING AN APOLOGIST RESPONSE. I am given a critic response. It is the critic who sees this relationship as lusty and all about sex. Not me. However, I am turning the tables and bringing fanny into the picture as someone who could have said no but chose not to. Also, as the article I posted demonstrated, young women matured sexually early and some were prone to have premarital sex. But it is the critic who puts this relationship in the gutter not me.

If it was all about sex as the critic says, then we will need to bring fanny into the picture. First, she was not troubled by the relationship. Second, to my knowledge, she never said a bad word about Joseph Smith. Third, she kept the happening to herself without guilt or remorse, to my understanding. Third, she married and had many children without being accused of bigomy.

I suggest you stick to your own thoughts and respond with them, why me. You aren't really good at expressing what critics are thinking, because it's obvious you are totally clueless about what anyone else, pro, con, or indifferent, is thinking.

[_beastie]

Those Mormon females were victims of a system that stripped them of power and recourse, just as Muslim women under Sharia law have no authority, no recourse, and are criminalized if they don't comply with their status as property to their husbands, fathers, brother, and neighbors. It is a sad and shameful thing to watch it happen, see others make excuses for it, and in some cases express a desire to participate in it.

I urge the men who are arguing on behalf of the Mormon prophet Joseph Smith to reconsider their positions and give pause to the ideology that spawns this kind of behavior.

While the LDS system did not respond in the same manner as your example – no women were beaten, or worse – it is true that women who rejected secretive polygamous advances were libeled and slandered, with the clear intent of ruining their social standing.

It should also be pointed out that some of these women were very happy to have secretive relationships with Joseph Smith, who was charismatic and powerful in the LDS community. To be brutally frank, I think Eliza Snow and Lucinda Morgan would have jumped into bed with Joseph no matter what he called the relationship. For that reason, while discussing the abuse of power and spiritual influence that occurred, I think it’s important to focus on the relationships Joseph sought out with young females who were not willing and eager participants, and who had to be “convinced” with talk of threatening angels, promises of exaltation for the entire family unit, and were given 24 hours to give a response, or lose such a wonderful opportunity forever. In addition, we should focus on the cases wherein the women who rejected advances were called whores in the church newspaper. Martha Brotherton was maligned in the worst way after she rejected BY’s secret proposal – and yet after her death, Brigham Young still had her sealed to him.

So yes, in a way, they were stripped of recourse, knowing that the likely result of rejecting a secretive proposal by a powerful leader would be public humiliation, with the attendant humiliation of the family, with the likely end result of having to leave the community altogether.

[_Nevo]

Okay, let me try this again: I AM NOT GIVING AN APOLOGIST RESPONSE. I am given a critic response. It is the critic who sees this relationship as lusty and all about sex. Not me. However, I am turning the tables and bringing fanny into the picture as someone who could have said no but chose not to. Also, as the article I posted demonstrated, young women matured sexually early and some were prone to have premarital sex. But it is the critic who puts this relationship in the gutter not me.

I think this tactic is misguided, why me. Hasn't Fanny Alger's name been dragged through the mud enough already? That Fanny chose to say "yes" to Joseph does not make her a tramp. (You've been the only one making this argument, so you can't put it on "the critic".) As a believer in Joseph Smith's prophetic calling, I honor Fanny's decision.

Fanny Alger was remembered as a girl who was kind and good and loved by all. Benjamin F. Johnson described her as a "very nice and comely young woman about my own age, towards whom not only myself but every one seemed partial for the amiability of her character."

Also, your claim that mid-nineteenth-century adolescent girls were, on the whole, a promiscuous lot ("back then, young women were sexually active . . . they wanted some action") is historically uninformed. Noting that "across New England, and indeed in rural old England as well, the proportion of brides pregnant on their marriage day topped up in the range of 30 to 40 percent," historian Patricia Cline Cohen goes on to say: "This was no epidemic of adolescent pregnancy; the couples were typically at the point of making a marriage decision, being indistinguishable in their age and station in life from other marrying couples whose first child came a respectable nine months after the wedding" (Patricia Cline Cohen, The Murder of Helen Jewett: The Life and Death of a Prostitute in Nineteenth-Century New York [New York: Knopf, 1999], 199-200).

[_Nevo]

However, that does not negate the reality that many of the females Joseph Smith went after were not naturally inclined to have a secretive relationship with him, even if it was called a “marriage”. Yet Joseph still sought those women, and convinced them by telling them things like they’d ensure their family’s salvation by entering into the relationship with him, or that an angel threatened his life, and giving them a very short amount of time to reply. Often these women were quite young and inexperienced. This was a clear abuse of power.

Here is how Joseph convinced Zina Jacobs:

When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriage that we would have the privilige of associating in family relationships in the worlds to come I searched the scripture & buy humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church. I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise concience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world after having been baptized by one having authority and covenanting <to be obedient> at the waters edge to live the life of a saint [?] . . .

— quoted in Compton, In Sacred Loneliness, 81.

[_Mary]

Beastie, I have been reading the links on 'spiritual wifery' thanks. In terms of Joseph's practice of polyandry and the clandestine way in which he chose to engage in polygamy I would have thought that he was being influenced by someone or something 'other than' the Old Testament or Book of Mormon. So, for me it goes back to the Cochranites. I have never heard of the 'immortalists' from the 1740's and can't find much on them from the net.

This is from Orange L Wight's short history, which for me, holds some very interesting snippets.

http://www.boap.org/LDS/Early-Saints/OWight.html

I now come to that part of my story that you will be most likely interested in, which regards the doctrine taught by the Prophet Joseph Smith in regard to the plural marriage system. At first the doctrine was taught in private, the first I knew about it was in John Higbee's family; he lived close to us and being well acquainted with him and family I discovered he had two wives. The next I noticed when in company with the young folks the girls were calling one another spirituals. Now the reason why the young folks was in advance of me, my work was in the machine shop 22 miles above Nauvoo where I spent nearly all my time. But when at Nauvoo in the winter of 1841 and 1842, I became fully initiated.

Now although in my 20th year [I] would not be 20 until 29 November, 1843, I concluded to look about and try to pick up one or more of the young ladies before they were all gone. So I commenced keeping company with Flora Woodworth, daughter of Lucian Woodworth (called the Pagan Prophet).

I was walking along the street with Flora near the Prophet's residence when he, Joseph, drove, up in his carriage, stopped and spoke to I and Flora and asked us to get in the carriage and ride with him. He opened the door for us and when we were seated opposite to him he told the driver to drive on. We went to the [Nauvoo] temple lot and many other places during the afternoon and then he drove to the Woodworth house and we got out and went in. After we got in the house Sister Woodworth took me in another room and told me that Flora was one of Joseph's wives. I was aware or believed that Eliza R. Snow and the two Partridge girls were his wives but was not informed about Flora. But now Sister Woodworth gave me all the information necessary, so I knew Joseph believed and practiced polygamy.

......
Now as a matter of course I at once, after giving Flora a mild lecture, left her and looked for a companion in other places and where I could be more sure.

It seems from Orange's account that 'some' knowledge of the spiritual wife system became known through the 'young' girls, who were referring to each other as 'spirituals' (in the early 1840's).

Whether they understood the full implications of the system is another matter. This account suggests by implication that Flora didn't fully understand the obligation she was under to Joseph, otherwise she wouldn't have started 'walking out' with Orange.

However, her mother clearly did.. Strange stuff.

Perhaps there were certain instances where an agreement was made, but that 'sexual relations' were not entered into if the 'girl' in question was not considered yet mature enough. I say that, because surely if sexual relations had occurred Flora would have been more aware that this was a real rather than imagined marriage, and I may be wrong.

If the marriage of Flora didn't include sex, then Joseph might have already learned from his earlier experiences or experimentation with 'the principle'. Flora would have been about 17 I believe. Whatever the situation Joseph as alpha male was quick to put his diplomatic 'stamp' on what he regarded as 'his'. The carriage ride is very interesting.

[_truth dancer]

Hi Walmart,

OK, let us go through this slowly.

YOU are the only one I know of who thinks critics have some sort of idea that there were not girls who were sexually active during the early 1800's. OK? No one is even remotely suggesting this is the case. YOU are projecting some strange view onto critics that is not accurate; again, no one I know is arguing that some girls were not sexually active a couple of centuries ago.

Second point, several people HAVE read the article you linked. It is not new information to anyone. I don't know anyone who had the idea that some sixteen year old girls were not sexually active.

Again, girls reach sexual maturity much earlier today than they did a two hundred years ago.

OK?

Let us move on.

Why did Fanny say yes?

We have a girl working for the prophet of God, the one and only man God himself chose, the most powerful man on the earth who comes and tells his children's nanny that God has commanded her to be his. As in other situations when Joseph Smith coerced young girls to be his, he most likely told (bribed) her that if she consented, ALL her family, and posterity would be assured a place in the celestial kingdom with God.

What girl would say no? If she said no, she would be saying no to GOD? Fanny trusted Joseph Smith, believed God was speaking to him, and wanted to obey God's commands.

OF COURSE SHE WOULD SAY YES.

Just like all the FLDS young girls say yes to Warren Jeffs.

Again, do you blame the twelve and thirteen year old girls who marry Jeffs for being seductive? Is that an argument ANYONE makes? Should critics of Warren Jeffs blame these little girls for tempting an older married man? Do critics hold these little girls responsible for sexual involvement with a prophet?

No one blames Fanny for the sexual liaison she had with Joseph Smith because critics understand the dynamics of a powerful older man manipulating and coercing a young girl who believes God commanded the prophet to have sex with her.

Seriously, Walmart, you need to step back from this and think about what you are writing and why critics do not use the "Fanny was a slut" argument you evidently want critics to use.

Critics are not going with this argument you seem to want used because it is sick and perverted and totally ridiculous.

~td~

[_Doctor CamNC4Me]

http://www.cnn.com/2009/WORLD/meast/06/ ... index.html

Hello Everyone,

Not to make too much of a point of it, but a woman's rights under a male's notion of religious law is essentially nil. It's all dependent upon the males in question to charitably give a woman any freedom, and as we all know this leads to problematic issues.

Very Respectfully,

CamNC4Me

[_beastie]

Nevo -

When I heard that God had revealed the law of celestial marriage that we would have the privilige of associating in family relationships in the worlds to come I searched the scripture & buy humble prayer to my Heavenly Father I obtained a testimony for myself that God had required that order to be established in this church. I mad[e] a greater sacrifise than to give my life for I never anticipated a gain to be looked upon as an honerable woman by those I dearly loved [but] could I compremise concience lay aside the sure testimony of the spiret of God for the Glory of this world after having been baptized by one having authority and covenanting <to be obedient> at the waters edge to live the life of a saint [?] . . .

Of course the women who were persuaded to consider the proposal seriously, due to their deep belief that Joseph Smith was a “true prophet”, received a spiritual “witness”. Think of the psychological stress of the situation. The young female in question already believes Joseph Smith is a true prophet and that the LDS church is the “one true church”. Often the female’s family is either gone or likewise fervent believers in the church and Joseph Smith. What would have happened to her had she prayed and received a “no” answer? Please be clear – I am not saying these women fabricated or lied about their testimonies of spiritual wifery. I am saying that their minds accommodatingly provided that which they needed in order to continue with their lives.

Now imagine being a fourteen year old girl who was told that if she “took this step” she would “insure the eternal salvation and exaltation of her father's household and kindred.” Your father, whom you love and trust, seems to want you to enter into this relationship. Your entire family believes Joseph Smith is a prophet, as you do, as well. This is a perfect psychological set-up to guarantee that the young female will, indeed, receive a spiritual affirmation in prayer – because the alternative is psychologically unbearable.

by the way, nothing in LDS theology seems to justify telling a fourteen year old that her agreeing to be Joseph Smith’s spiritual wife would guarantee the exaltation of her father’s household and kindred. Yet this is what Joseph Smith told a fourteen year old girl. I imagine if a man in his thirties put your fourteen year old daughter in that situation, you would not be happy.

MissTaken –

It seems from Orange's account that 'some' knowledge of the spiritual wife system became known through the 'young' girls, who were referring to each other as 'spirituals' (in the early 1840's).

Whether they understood the full implications of the system is another matter. This account suggests by implication that Flora didn't fully understand the obligation she was under to Joseph, otherwise she wouldn't have started 'walking out' with Orange.

However, her mother clearly did.. Strange stuff.

Perhaps there were certain instances where an agreement was made, but that 'sexual relations' were not entered into if the 'girl' in question was not considered yet mature enough. I say that, because surely if sexual relations had occurred Flora would have been more aware that this was a real rather than imagined marriage, and I may be wrong.

If the marriage of Flora didn't include sex, then Joseph might have already learned from his earlier experiences or experimentation with 'the principle'. Flora would have been about 17 I believe. Whatever the situation Joseph as alpha male was quick to put his diplomatic 'stamp' on what he regarded as 'his'. The carriage ride is very interesting.

This is why I’ve argued with RFMers about labeling Joseph Smith a “pedophile”. I don’t think there is good evidence he had sex with Helen Mar, for the same reason you outline here. Helen Mar didn’t seem to initially understand that “marrying” Joseph would change her socializing with folks her own age, including young men. It was being not being allowed to attend a dance that sent her into a tailspin over the situation (hence her forlorn poem). If she had already had a sexual relationship with Joseph Smith by that point, there would not be any doubt in her mind what the “marriage” was intended to be. Modern polygamist communities sometimes “set aside” young females for older, powerful males in the community, but the sexual part of the relationship doesn’t occur until she’s of age. (of course that’s not true of all polygamist communities, some seem to believe a fourteen year old wife is ready for sex).

So I don’t believe Joseph Smith was a pedophile, attracted to pre-pubescent females. I do believe he was attracted to very young, but sexually mature, females.

The spiritual wifery connection is fascinating, and I also believe that Joseph Smith was inspired by Cochanrites. In fact, the original argument of RLDS was to blame polygamy on LDS converts who were already exposed to spiritual wifery elsewhere. There was another religious movement that dabbled with spiritual wifery, as well – I think it was Swedenborg.

by the way, The Refiner's Fire talks about spiritual wifery (I think that's the book that convinced me of the connection). You can read an excerpt here:

http://books.google.com/books?id=eyvftt ... &resnum=10

[_Jersey Girl]

I have not blamed a 16 year old girl. The assumption that it was all lust based is a critic view not mine. I was just turning the tables a little. And I do believe that my point stands: Fanny said yes and she knew emma, if this was all lust based on Joseph Smith's part. She bears some responsibility

What if it were lust based on Joseph Smith's part and terror based on Fanny's part? Did Joseph Smith have no history of spiritual blackmail/coercion enacted upon females?

None?