Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

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_harmony
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _harmony »

William Schryver wrote:By “formally married,” you of course mean “legally married.” Do you believe that she (and Joseph) might very well have considered their union as legitimate as you do yours with your current companion?


What defines legitimacy? The law? The individual? Society?

And, assuming for a moment if you will that there is a God, do you believe that He might also have sanctioned that union?


Quite frankly: no. Not then, not now, not ever. God is no respector of persons, and he will not be mocked. Joseph died for and in his sin.
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Mary
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _Mary »

Nevo wrote:
Miss Taken wrote:I do think that Joseph had a very good sex drive should we say, but I don't think that is 'all' that drove him. He was much more complex than that.

I think Richard Bushman got it right: "Joseph did not marry women to form a warm, human companionship, but to create a network of related wives, children, and kinsmen that would endure into the eternities. . . . Like Abraham of old, Joseph yearned for familial plenitude. He did not lust for women so much as he lusted for kin" (Bushman, Joseph Smith: Rough Stone Rolling, 440).

Non-Mormon historian Lawrence Foster cites this as a powerful motivation as well: "A variety of factors including biblical precedent, concerns for expanding kinship ties in a socially chaotic environment, and Joseph Smith's own strong sex drive all made plural marriage an idea with considerable power for the Mormon prophet in Nauvoo, Illinois, during the early 1840s" (Foster, "The Psychology of Religious Genius: Joseph Smith and the Origins of New Religious Movements," in The Prophet Puzzle: Interpretive Essays on Joseph Smith, ed. Bryan Waterman [Salt Lake City: Signature Books, 1999], 188).

As Foster elaborates elsewhere:

A final key precondition for the introduction of Mormon polygamy was related to the social disorder with which Joseph Smith had to try to deal. . . . Mormons, in attempting to create their 'new Israel,' increasingly turned in on themselves and depended on family and kinship ties to secure loyalty to the group. Polygamy could make possible a far greater extension of such ties than could monogamy. For example, by the time of his death at age eighty-eight, the Mormon patriarch Benjamin F. Johnson was related by blood or by marriage to more than eight hundred people and presumably had greater power and security than those with less extensive kinship networks. The Mormon concern for extending family ties and for controlling their own marriage practices was part of a larger effort to establish an autonomous, self-sufficient organization separate from an evil and corrupt world, an effort to create a 'political kingdom of God.'

— Lawrence Foster, Women, Family, and Utopia: Communal Experiments of the Shakers, the Oneida Community, and the Mormons (Syracuse, NY: Syracuse University Press, 1991), 128.

By the way, the title of Foster's book should remind us that other 19th-century utopian communities also experimented with unorthodox marriage practices—which suggests something more behind the Mormon practice of plural marriage than Joseph Smith's raging libido.


Nevo, thanks for this. I've tried to access Foster's book on google but most pages are unavailabe. I have read what 'was' available. Another one I need to buy.

Do you think Joseph was influenced by Matthias at all? Foster suggests that since he mentions the first vision account with him, that the two may have developed some rapport, even if only initially.

Matthias's practice consisted of all other men having one wife, whereas he was the husband of 'all' of them. (see Lawrence Foster's tome)

Joseph seems to have been more generous about polygamy in terms of permitting other men to practice it, under his tight control, but he does seem to have viewed many other mens wives as his.

I can understand him marrying single women in order to bring about kinship ties that would last into the hereafter and strengthen bonds on earth, particularly at a time when he considered himself and the 'church' which he clearly identified himself with, persecuted (which was probably an ongoing state from childhood onwards for him), what I can't understand is that he would have thought that polyandry would have brought about the same result. The 'cuckolded' men in such positions are more likely to become his enemy than his friend as a result of any such relationships.

For me, the man is such a contradiction. A deep sensitivity with regard to criticism combined with a 'devil may care' attitude to life and death. I do believe that he was a risk taker. Which would also explain why he 'could' be caught in the barn with Fanny.

What do you think of his phrenology chart? I am interested in it, not because I believe it is in any way scientific, but because as Ray stated, he approved of its contents, ie he may have recognised himself in the attributes accorded to him. (probably with Will's tongue in cheek)

Mary
"It's a little like the Confederate Constitution guaranteeing the freedom to own slaves. Irony doesn't exist for bigots or fanatics." Maksutov
_beastie
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _beastie »

By “formally married,” you of course mean “legally married.” Do you believe that she (and Joseph) might very well have considered their union as legitimate as you do yours with your current companion?

And, assuming for a moment if you will that there is a God, do you believe that He might also have sanctioned that union? If not, then why? In other words, aside from your personal aversion to this particular form of human bonding, can you logically dispute that God himself may see things differently?


People can’t be accused of bigamy unless they’re legally married to two people at the same time. It doesn’t matter whether or not they viewed their relationship as legitimate, nor does it matter whether or not God views their relationship as legitimate. What matters, in regards to the charge of bigamy, is how many legal marriages they've entered into simultaneously. Whyme offered the fact that Fanny was never accused of bigamy as evidence of their relationship being spiritual wifery versus a simple affair. I was responding to that in particular. No one can be accused of bigamy unless they’re legally married to two people. This particular defense of whyme’s was silly, and so is your rebuttal.

If I got married to someone else in the future, it would be nonsensical for me to be accused of bigamy due to my current relationship. That has nothing to do with how I view my relationship – which, in my view, is far more legitimate and far more likely to be accepted by any possible godbeing than the legal marriage I endured. It simply has to do with the fact that I am not legally married to my soulmate, and hence, any charge of bigamy would be bizarre – as it is bizarre for whyme to use that as some sort of argument.

Without entering into a dispute over whether or not some (a very, very few “some”) women were served in that fashion—perhaps without cause—do you really mean to convey the notion that, as a standard practice, throughout the continuum of the era of Mormon plural marriages, that “it is true that women who rejected secretive polygamous advances were libeled and slandered, with the clear intent of ruining their social standing”? Because, if that’s what you mean to imply, you would be—and demonstrably so—wrong.


I meant exactly what I said. During the continuum of Mormon polygamy, most were not “secretive”. There was one specific period during which it was secretive, and it is during that period women were slandered for rejecting the proposals. I was clear in my comments, and you even quoted them in your response, and yet still attempted to distort them to mean something entirely different than what I said. So far you’re batting zero.

I think this entire paragraph is a prime example of your frequent tendency to both extrapolate beyond the evidence, or to be substantially unfamiliar with that evidence, or to misread that evidence so severely as to do violence to the primary sources. Not only that, but your interpretation of the sources (and it appears that Zina Diantha Huntington’s words are the primary target of your statement) manifests an extraordinary arrogance towards her extremely enlightening account, and I believe you are, without any warrant, extraordinarly dismissive of someone I consider to be quite a fine example, albeit a very complex one, of personally powerful womanhood.


Then do you accept the spiritual affirmations of all individuals in similar circumstances as evidence that God is sanctioning the particular behavior? It seems you do not, because you dismissed my reference to Wayne Bent’s females next:

Once again you clearly manifest the fact that, for you, it IS nothing but a question of sexuality.

I am personally convinced that the advent of Mormon plural marriage was NOT primarily a question of sexuality. It went far beyond that, encompassing concepts that were simultaneously spiritual and yet supremely material in nature.

I don’t expect you to understand. But I think I do, and therefore I am not nearly as inclined to be puritanically judgmental of these things as I perceive you are.


How odd. You seem to insinuate that Bent’s relationships were nothing but a question of sexuality, despite the spiritual witnesses of the people involved.

I’ve seen a fascinating documentary on Wayne Bent, and saw the people involved sharing their own “testimonies” that Bent’s behavior was God-sanctioned. His son, whose wife Bent slept with repeatedly under God’s direction, testified that he knew it was God’s will. So did his wife. The article I linked also shared the teenage girls’ assertion that laying naked with Bent was God’s will and brought them spiritual enlightenment.

Do you accept their witnesses? If not, how do you explain their witnesses? This is not a rhetorical question – I invite you or any other believer who thinks that the spiritual witnesses received by folks in LDS plural marriage to be serious evidence of God’s sanction to respond to this question.

If you do not feel compelled to accept the spiritual witnesses of the people involved in the Bent situation, or other situations, why should I feel compelled to accept the spiritual witnesses of people involved with Joseph Smith?

I agree Joseph Smith practiced spiritual wifery for several reasons, but I think that it’s silly to insist that his sexual desires were not one of them – and, frankly, were not very important. Otherwise, as I said, he simply would have done what he apparently led Emma to believe he was going to do – simply create these unions for the next life and refrain from sexual contact in this life. And, as I already pointed out, if he were simply acting to avoid being killed by the angel God sent, he could have married a couple of spiritual wives and kept it solely spiritual. Instead, he married thirty-three women and had sexual relations with a good number of them.

Marrying thirty-three women and then having sexual relations with many of them, is pretty good evidence that Joseph Smith was enthusiastic about obtaining more wives, and that sexual desire was a significant factor in that enthusiasm.

While polygyny is not a lifestyle I would ever choose, nor would it be one I would encourage for my children, I think consenting adults have a right to enter into whatever marital system they choose. I think the US government overstepped its bounds by persecuting the early LDS church for the practice and violated the LDS right to practice their own religion. What I find to be morally objectionable is the abuse of power and influence that Joseph Smith engaged in to practice his form of spiritual wifery, as well as his repeated deceptions with Emma. Joseph Smith abused his spiritual power and influence by pressuring young girls to accept his proposals within a very short amount of time, and by making promises to them that were not justified by Mormon theology.

I also think that men who tolerate or approve of polygyny while not being willing to tolerate or approve of polyandry are hypocrites.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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_beastie
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _beastie »

by the way, there are many other examples of folks who received spiritual witnesses that whatever behavior they were engaging in was God-sanctioned. A very closely related example is the current practioners of polygamy associated with LDS offshoot groups. Back when mormonstories was still extanct, there was an interview of a polygamist named Anne or Annie. She was very interesting, and at the end of her interview bore her testimony of the truthfulness of the principle and her call to practice it. It sounded exactly like the testimonies born every month in LDS chapels.

Do those of you who offer the testimonies of Joseph Smith's wives as evidence that the practice was God-sanctioned also accept the testimonies of fundamentalist Mormons today, along with the testimonies of the followers of Wayne Bent as evidence their behavior is also God-sanctioned?

If you do not accept them, how do you explain them?
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_Danna

Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _Danna »

William Schryver wrote:You’d be wrong, then. Quite frankly, I can discern no particular social ill arising from the practice of polygyny. (I deliberately make the distincition between polygyny and polyandry. I believe a definite social ill would arise from the widespread practice of polyandry; specifically that the birthrate would plummet.)


You don't have that much of an understanding of demographics, I take it.

First of all, polygyny does not increase the average birthrate of a group - it actually decreases it. Take some time to plot the numbers of children borne by plural wives - with the exception of a first wife, especially if she was the only wife for some time, the average number of children for women in polygyny is lower than for the average in monogamy. Polygyny only increases the number of children for a specified male - NOT a group. In a situation where there was no imbalance of males (like early Utah) the group average is actually decreased. [Now I am going to have to look up the reference for this I know - give me a couple of days, it is exam time downunder and I am marking like a mad thing]

Second - polyandry will not lower the average number of children per woman (the real restriction on increase) if the men are 'recycled'. Just as many of JSjrs 'wives' were taken in by Young and Kimball, if men are remarried after the death of a wife, there are plenty to go around. More-so in fact since men are fertile for most of their lives and would be less likely to reduce breeding activities after the death of the first spouse as many of the 'recycled' women appeared to do. A woman breeding to her full potential is not going to be living much past the adolescence of her youngest child in any pre-modern medicine society, but with the existence of several 'fathers' the children are likely to be better provisioned and healthier - infant mortality rates in the 1800s, for the poor, were around 50%. Given the extended fertility of the male, polyandry makes more sense from a straight "raise up numbers" point of view than polygyny.
_Morrissey
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _Morrissey »

As a very general commentary to this thread, it is quite interesting (and disturbing) to me to find otherwise decent people engaging so much intellectual energy and precious time defending a system that transforms women into chattel and men into rutting animals competing to spread their seed and to accumulate the largest and most babelicious harem and in which possession of women is used as an indicator of social/divine status.

We have learned too much in the 150+ years since Joseph Smith about human rights and dignity, and their elevated position in the moral universe, to find ourselves trying to justify a self-evident violation of both within the context of religiously based polygamy.
_harmony
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _harmony »

Morrissey wrote:As a very general commentary to this thread, it is quite interesting (and disturbing) to me to find otherwise decent people engaging so much intellectual energy and precious time defending a system that transforms women into chattel and men into rutting animals competing to spread their seed and to accumulate the largest and most babelicious harem and in which possession of women is used as an indicator of social/divine status.

We have learned too much in the 150+ years since Joseph Smith about human rights and dignity, and their elevated position in the moral universe, to find ourselves trying to justify a self-evident violation of both within the context of religiously based polygamy.


You obviously have no testimony of the divinity of plural marriage as practiced by TheProphetJosephSmith. Or Brigham, for that matter. According to some sources on this board, unless you have that testimony, you will be forever damned and what the hell are you doing, holding a temple recommend?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_Droopy
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _Droopy »

This is the kind of thing that is irksome. Who cares whether anyone has heard of "Danel Bachman" or not? And yet you divert attention away from the real question (affair or marriage) by attempting to paint your opponent as either lazy or unlearned.



The degree to which Harmony is either lazy or unlearned is debatable. What is not debatable, after so many years of discussions with her, is that she is here to exorcise personal demons, not to seek the truth.

It is a strange thing indeed for someone who would mold the Church in her own image to say "who is Daniel Bachman?"

Who, by the way, is Harmony, and why should we be mindful of her?
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _Droopy »

Did anyone think Joseph Smith was married to Fanny when they were caught in the barn?


They weren't "caught" in the barn, at least not doing anything.

Oh, but I forgot, any time an adult male is alone with a young girl, foul, malignant, and filthy intent must be imputed in sexual abuse saturated TD/Feminist/Oprahworld. Joseph is guilty only because he was alone with Fanny without a government certified social worker watching closely, cattle prod in hand, to make sure nothing inappropriate was occurring.

I look forward to the joyous day when all of this comes crashing down around the ears of tenants, managers, and maintenance staff of the Great and Spacious Building.

And great shall be the fall of it.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
_Droopy
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Re: Joseph and Fanny-Asking for Will's Opinion in Particular

Post by _Droopy »

The picture that harmony, Truth Dancer, and others paint is nothing but a ridiculous caricature with little basis in historical facts.

Indeed, as incredible as it might seem, I would say that "dissonance" has grown markedly worse in recent weeks when it comes to her outrageously ridiculous tirades.

Watching her quasi-psychotic retorts to Nevo on this thread has been quite astounding at times. She's taken her illogical rants to a level of "loco" I never would have thought possible, even for her.


Never has any cat been out of any bag with such unrelenting gusto.
Nothing is going to startle us more when we pass through the veil to the other side than to realize how well we know our Father [in Heaven] and how familiar his face is to us

- President Ezra Taft Benson


I am so old that I can remember when most of the people promoting race hate were white.

- Thomas Sowell
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