Critics Confront Jeff Lindsay at "Mormanity"

[Physics Guy]

Would rowdy soldiers really have sung lyrics with Greek insults or is it more likely that Suetonius made the lines up himself?

[Symmachus]

Would rowdy soldiers really have sung lyrics with Greek insults or is it more likely that Suetonius made the lines up himself?

The word moechus is of Greek origin, but it was borrowed into Latin from almost the earliest literary records in the 3rd century BCE, so I don't think it was experienced as a "Greek" insult, or at least not as a literary insult that would be beyond the grasp of mere soldiers. It is in the realm of the colloquial.

I am inclined to believe these lines are genuine. Does something besides the Greek borrowing make you suspicious of that? And of course I would love to get Kishkumen's view of it, as I'm sure he knows Suetonius and Suetonianisms much better than I.

[Kishkumen]

As one of my esteemed colleagues likes to say, Rome was the largest Greek-speaking city in the Mediterranean.

[Physics Guy]

Huh. I do recall reading, somewhere that seemed authoritative, that there was a lot of Greek in Rome, though mainly in richer classes. Is it true that Caesar's famous last "Et tu, Brute?" was probably actually Greek?

The legionaries still might not have spoken much Greek but if they didn't then they probably just didn't know that their familiar Latin insult of moechus was originally foreign. Was the association with shaven heads really part of moechus in colloquial Latin, though, or is that only in its Greek etymology? Were the soldiers themselves being witty on purpose or did Suetonius record their verse because he noticed in it something they didn't?

I think this little question has sparked my interest because it might (depending on moechus) say something about how far ancient armies were segregated by social class. Most armies have been throughout history, even in democratic societies with a fair degree of social mobility, though there have been exceptions. There used to be a British regiment composed entirely of lawyers, the Inns of Court Regiment. On closer scrutiny I'm not sure it's really an example of military levelling but it's nice to think of it that way. It was popularly known as "The Devil's Own".

[Kishkumen]

Huh. I do recall reading, somewhere that seemed authoritative, that there was a lot of Greek in Rome, though mainly in richer classes. Is it true that Caesar's famous last "Et tu, Brute?" was probably actually Greek?

It is reported in Greek by Suetonius and Dio as "καὶ σὺ τέκνον;" ("And you, my child . . ."). You have quoted Richard Edes and Shakespeare.

Anyway, rich people spoke Greek and many slaves spoke Greek. Many merchants spoke Greek. Many wealthy people from the Greek world relocated to Rome. Rome drew Greeks from the eastern part of the empire because Rome was the political and financial center of the ancient Mediterranean world.

The legionaries still might not have spoken much Greek but if they didn't then they probably just didn't know that their familiar Latin insult of moechus was originally foreign. Was the association with shaven heads really part of moechus in colloquial Latin, though, or is that only in its Greek etymology? Were the soldiers themselves being witty on purpose or did Suetonius record their verse because he noticed in it something they didn't?

Latin was the working language of the army, but many soldiers spoke other languages too. Some soldiers were recruited from the provinces. Many auxiliaries came from the provinces. A lot of the personnel in the navy came from places other than Italy. Most people in Italy spoke native languages that were not Roman Latin. Italy was called "Magna Graecia" (Great Greece) as a result of the colonization of Italy, particularly in the south-southwest of the peninsula, by Greeks.