Take Two, July 26

The catch-all forum for general topics and debates. Minimal moderation. Rated PG to PG-13.
Post Reply
_wlbagley
_Emeritus
Posts: 1
Joined: Sat Jul 25, 2009 10:29 pm

Take Two, July 26

Post by _wlbagley »

Tomorrow morning, Sunday 26 July at 10:00 AM on Salt Lake's KUTV, Channel 2, Rod Decker's Take Two features Glen Leonard and and me discussing the worst even in Utah history. We don't quite see eye to eye on this and that, but Glen sure is a nice guy.

A friend pointed me to this discussion, where R. Crocket once again builds a scarecrow and tears it apart. When he says I said something, I'd encourage smart folks to take a look at what I actually say:

Will's essential theme was that Brigham Young knew about the massacre before it happened and actually ordered it. In that regard, he disagreed with Juanita Brooks who concluded that Brigham Young didn't know about it in advance.


"Blood of the Prophets" shows BY's role in creating the social conditions Ms. Brooks said the massacre was possible--and new material, including sending Indians after wagon trains on the southern route. It discusses the political motives Young had to want such an incident and what resulted from this traitorous federal official's conduct. It also quotes Juanita Brooks as saying in 1968 she had “come to feel that Brigham Young was directly responsible for this tragedy.” John D. Lee, she believed, would make it to heaven before Brigham Young

Crocket:

There were a number of subsidiary themes which interested me as a legal matter. For instance, both Brooks and Bagley concluded that a deal had been made with the U.S. Attorney to let Brigham Young and others off the hook for prosecution in return for scapegoating Lee. That particular claim was rather fascinating and took some space in my review, as I pointed out that a deal to thwart justice without a presidential pardon would have been illegal. Indeed, I found in the National Archives correspondence which neither Bagley nor Brooks had which showed another ten years of trying to pin Brigham Young to the crime.


Not true. I reviewed the same NARA material, though I cited the easier-to-access published version in Dwyer's "The Gentile Comes to Utah," 105-11. But for some reason, neither Crockett nor Turley seemed interested in the quote I found interesting:

Two weeks later Howard reversed course in a letter to Attorney General Taft. He claimed he had provoked Utah’s non-Mormons to lull the suspicions of the Saints. Now Howard hoped to arrest Haight, Higbee, and Stewart, but he apparently still believed he did not have enough evidence to convict their commanding officer, William Dame. Lee’s conviction was “working its intended results,” and he would “arrest the others, who are nearer to the ‘seat of power’ than Lee ever was, thus gradually work our way to the core of the rottenness.”


I was telling a big story and didn't have the vast real estate FARMS gave to Yoeman Crockett. But I summarized post-trial history as concisely and honestly as I could:

Circumstances suggest that the Mormons had corrupted Howard, but he may simply having been an honest public servant trying to make the best of an impossible situation. In this case the best was perhaps the conviction of a single man. Howard continued to support legislation to limit the power of Mormon theocracy and stressed "the great importance of following the conviction of Lee with that of others equally guilty." He asked for funds to hire a special detective to track down the fugitives, complaining that every move the federal marshals made was watched and noted. Taft appointed William Stokes to investigate, but these efforts came to naught.


I'm not so sure about Sumner Howard's honesty these days. Last fall, with David L. Bigler, I published "Innocent Blood: Essential Narratives of the Mountain Meadows Massacre" (Norman: The Arthur H. Clark Company, 2008). It contains evidence that Howard received a bribe of at least $20,000 to protect Brigham Young, but I'd guess it was closer to $25,000. "Innocent Blood," by the way, contains both sides of the coverup story, including BY's explanations of his conduct and the later Penrose defense, which the LDS church recently spent millions and millions of dollars to rehabilitate.

The Lee trail account in BOTP ends:
The federal government would never bring another prosecution for the murders at Mountain Meadows.
Even Crockett, I suspect, agrees that is true. Maybe he can review "Innocent Blood" for FARMS: he doesn't seem to know anything about Western history except that the Mountain Meadows massacre was solely the work of a few very very very bad men in southern Utah.

Will Bagley
_Dr. Shades
_Emeritus
Posts: 14117
Joined: Mon Oct 23, 2006 9:07 pm

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _Dr. Shades »

Welcome, Mr. Bagley! It's good to hear your points of view on this topic. I look forward to seeing the Channel 2 broadcast.
"Finally, for your rather strange idea that miracles are somehow linked to the amount of gay sexual gratification that is taking place would require that primitive Christianity was launched by gay sex, would it not?"

--Louis Midgley
_Morrissey
_Emeritus
Posts: 329
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 1:42 am

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _Morrissey »

In case Will is monitoring responses to his post, I'd like to pose to him the following questions:

"Is it accurate to state that the Mormon Church initiated and carried out a cover up of the Mountain Meadows massacre thereby preventing guilty parties from being brought to justice?"

"If yes, (1) were high ranking Mormon officials, including and particularly Brigham Young, knowledgeable about the cover up and (2) did high ranking Mormon officials, including and particularly Brigham Young, actively participate in the cover up?"

Edited to Add: Anyone else can feel free to give it a bash too. (As if I had to remind you.) :smile:
Last edited by Guest on Sun Jul 26, 2009 3:55 am, edited 1 time in total.
_Doctor Scratch
_Emeritus
Posts: 8025
Joined: Sat Apr 18, 2009 4:44 pm

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _Doctor Scratch »

I would like to extend a very hearty welcome to Will Bagley. I am a very big fan of Blood of the Prophets. The O.P. states:

A friend pointed me to this discussion, where R. Crocket once again builds a scarecrow and tears it apart. When he says I said something, I'd encourage smart folks to take a look at what I actually say


Yes. Well, Crockett has been carrying on for a long time about how you "praised" his scholarship, especially a letter which he seriously mangled for his FARMS article.... I can look for the exact quote in question, if necessary. Of course, I always felt skeptical about Crockett's claims vis-a-vis your praise.
"[I]f, while hoping that everybody else will be honest and so forth, I can personally prosper through unethical and immoral acts without being detected and without risk, why should I not?." --Daniel Peterson, 6/4/14
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _harmony »

What I want to know is... what was the deal with Brigham and the buggy?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
_solomarineris
_Emeritus
Posts: 1207
Joined: Mon Jun 25, 2007 1:51 am

Re: It's great to hear from you Will

Post by _solomarineris »

After reading Juanita Brooks I thought no book about MMM would show me anything new about the sad event.
I was pleasantly surprised, your book was intense, very well researched, I couldn't put it down until I finished it.
My question is; do you have a review of this new LDS Sponsored Turley & Co book? I'd love to read your take on it.
The best part of your book was the homage you paid to Juanita Brooks, I didn't know much about the courageous
lady. I always had the impression that she implicated Brigham Young for the MMM.
I also listened your 2 part interview with Van Hale, honestly this guy is such a monumental waste trying to reason with.
with the apologists at least you know where you stand but Van emphatically says he is no apologist, appears impartial
yet sweeps monumental facts under the rug.
Your book was definitely a literary treasure, while reading I was there in a way, I could picture the landscape I've seen before
in my minds eye.
Thank you.
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Will, nice to see you here.

I very much enjoyed, Blood of the Prophets; excellent work!

Thanks for clearing things up for us. :wink:

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_truth dancer
_Emeritus
Posts: 4792
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2006 12:40 pm

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _truth dancer »

Hey Will, nice to see you here.

I very much enjoyed, Blood of the Prophets; excellent work!

Thanks for clearing things up for us. :wink:

~td~
"The search for reality is the most dangerous of all undertakings for it destroys the world in which you live." Nisargadatta Maharaj
_harmony
_Emeritus
Posts: 18195
Joined: Fri Oct 27, 2006 1:35 am

Re: Take Two, July 26

Post by _harmony »

What are some general observations from those who heard this?
(Nevo, Jan 23) And the Melchizedek Priesthood may not have been restored until the summer of 1830, several months after the organization of the Church.
Post Reply