Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

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_why me
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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _why me »

Dr. Shades wrote:
mentalgymnast wrote:Do you consider ALL sources critical of the church reliable?

Before we can proceed, I must ask the following counter-question:

Do you consider ANY source critical of the church [to be] reliable?

It does not matter if they are reliable or not. We still have the witnesses and the events that led up to the translating of the Book of Mormon. And we have some aspects of the early church that fly against human nature. If it were all a fraud, it should have failed during the first weeks when the story was put into effect. And we need to remember that someone needed to hatch the story if it were a fraud. No proof that the story was hatched however.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _why me »

Gadianton Plumber wrote:Thank you. They are attesting the held metal plates. Now, for further clarification, how does this translate that they were authentic? How does this establish that the Book of Mormon was authentic?

I don't know...being shown by a supernatural power may suffice. But if this were all a fraud, we will need to introduce a metal smith to hatch the plates with a gold appearance.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

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http://www.lightplanet.com/Mormons/primary/bomconf.htm

This is better for senior Primary. Have a leader read the Dan (or Danielle) Rather part and assign older children who can read well to the other parts. After the news conference has ended, have the children write a head line and a lead sentence or two about what happened.

Cast: (Provide a name tag for each character)
DR=Dan or Danielle Rather
Oliver Cowdery
David Whitmer
Martin Harris
Bryant Gumbel
Christian Whitmer
Joseph Smith, Senior
Hyrum Smith
Samuel Smith
Jacob Whitmer
Peter Whitmer, Jr.
John Whitmer
Hiram Page
Jane Pauley
Peter Jennings

DR: Hello, welcome to our news conference today. Thank you to Stanford for hosting us. I'm Danielle Rather, recently back from Bosnia, because of this incredible story happening today, right here in Palo Alto, CA. As many of you know, the Book of Mormon has been around for about 168 years in English. At the time it was published there were testimonies about it from 11 different witnesses printed in the book. Now we have here, today, all 11 of those witnesses to tell us again their marvelous story. As members of the working press, you had better take good notes, and remember what they say, because you know when this news conference is over you will have to go back to your papers and write the article to tell the world about this incredible happening.

DR: (walking into audience) Our witnesses are naturally a bit shy. They have all been dead at least 100 years, so we look a bit strange to them. Ah, here's one. (Place name tag on child.) Mr. Oliver Cowdery, won't you please come up to the front. (Finding 2 other children and giving them nametags.) And here are Mr. David Whitmer and Mr. Martin Harris. Thank you for joining us today, gentlemen. Let's speak first to Brother Harris. Tell us a little about your experiences with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon.

Martin Harris: Many of you are aware that I knew Joseph Smith as a young man. I was impressed with him, and hired him to work for me on my farm. He trusted me with his story about the angel Moroni and the gold plates. I was very much impressed and gave him $50 to help with the work. I also became his scribe as he translated the first 116 pages. Unfortunately, due to my own pride and disobedience as I showed these pages to my wife and others, the pages were lost. Joseph and I were both devastated. I received a severe rebuke from the Lord, and I was no longer used as scribe. However, I remained friendly to Joseph, and when I heard that the work was finished in late June 1829, I walked the 25 miles from my home to the Whitmers, where Joseph was living to congratulate him. While there, and after another day of prayer and repentance I was permitted to be one of the three special witnesses. Some say that I left the church later, but it is probably more true to say that the church left me. I remained in Kirtland after most of the saints left in 1838. I became the custodian of the Kirtland Temple. In 1869 a missionary returning from Europe stopped by to see me. He was a friend of my wife and children who had gone on to Utah. He asked me if I still stood by my testimony printed in the Book of Mormon. I said, "Just as surely as the sun is shining on us and gives us light, ...just as surely as the breath of life sustains us, so surely do I know that Joseph Smith was a true prophet of God, so surely do I know that the Book of Mormon was divinely translated. I saw the plates; I saw the angel; I heard the voice of God. I might as well doubt my own existence as to doubt the divine authenticity of the Book of Mormon." This missionary made arrangements for me to come by railroad to Utah, where I lived with my son until my death in 1875 in Cache Valley.

DR: Mr. Harris, that is truly a fascinating story. Now, Mr. Cowdery, do you have anything to add?

Oliver Cowdery: Well, I took over as main scribe for Joseph after Martin left. Sister Emma Smith, Joseph's wife, also assisting. I prepared the manuscript for printing. Just a few days after the translation work was complete, Joseph, Martin Harris, David Whitmer and I went into the woods near the Whitmer house to pray. Joseph was desirous that we other three should also be allowed to see the plates and join him in having a physical knowledge of them. However, we were not receiving answers to our supplications. Brother Harris stated that he was the problem, due to his sins in losing the first 116 translated pages, so he left our group and went elsewhere. After his departure, a marvelous vision was unfolded to us. My testimony of that vision is printed in the beginning of the Book of Mormon. In later years I did have contentions with the prophet Joseph, and I was excommunicated in 1838. For the next 10 years I practiced law in Ohio and Wisconsin. During one trial the opposing attorney tried to discredit me before the jury by stating that I was a Mormon. Instead of denying my affiliation--after all, I had been excommunicated--I bore strong testimony. I told that courtroom, "I saw the angel and heard his voice--how can I deny it? It happened in the daytime when the sun was shining bright in the firmament; not in the night when I was asleep. That glorious messenger from heaven, dressed in white, standing above the ground, in a glory I have never seen anything to compare with--the sun insignificant in comparison--and this personage told us if we denied that testimony there is no forgiveness in this life nor in the world to come. Now how can I deny it--I dare not; I will not!" In 1848 I returned to the church and asked to be rebaptized. I was accepted, and was preparing to join the saints in Utah when I died of consumption in 1850.

DR: Your story seems to agree with that of Mr. Harris. Now, let's turn to our third witness, Mr. David Whitmer. How do you feel about all this after so many years? Can you add any insights for our reporters?

David Whitmer: I became acquainted with the prophet Joseph Smith through Oliver Cowdery. Persecutions became great in Palmyra, so Oliver wrote and asked if Joseph and Emma could come to my father's farm to work. They came, but they did not carry the plates with them, as that would have been too dangerous. The plates were hidden in my father's barn by an old man that none of us knew. While the translation was going on, my mother had a great deal of extra work caring for Joseph, Emma, Oliver, etc. One day as she was outside, this old man came into the barn and showed her the plates as a reward for her labors. After the translation was finished, I was able to participate in the vision with Joseph and Oliver. I, too, left the church and was excommunicated in 1838, however, I would bear testimony of that vision whenever I had a chance all of my life. I never denied that the angel had come to us and shown us not only the plates, but also the sword of Laban, the Liahona, the Urim and Thummim and the Brass Plates of Laban. I got the original manuscript of the Book of Mormon from Oliver before he died. I never would give it back to the church, but passed it down to my nephew, John Whitmer. It protected us. There was a huge cyclone that came through town. All our house was destroyed, except the room containing the trunk where that manuscript was. We had to camp out for a time after that, until the house was rebuilt. There was a rainstorm and flood. The trunk was water damaged, and most of its content became wet and mildewed, but the Book of Mormon manuscript was as clean and dry as the day it was written. I published again my testimony in a newspaper in 1881. I told it again on my deathbed in 1888. I will never deny it.

DR: So there you have it--three men who stick by their story after 168 years. Before we let these three gentlemen sit down, are there any questions from the audience? (Child assigned to be Bryant Gumbel raises his hand.) Yes, Bryant Gumbel, how nice to have you with us. You are first.

Bryant Gumbel: Danielle, it's good to be here. My question is to Mr. Cowdery. In reading your testimony, I come up with 5 main points. Could you tell me if I have analyzed it correctly?

1. The testimony is for all nations and peoples.
2. You saw and handled the plates.
3. You know they were translated by the power of God.
4. You heard His voice.
5. An angel appeared to show these things to you.

Are those correct statements??

Oliver Cowdery: Yes, that is essentially correct, although in summarizing it I think you leave out some of the power of the testimony. It isn't a very long statement. We would prefer if you could quote it in its entirety.

DR: Thank you. Any other questions? No? All right. We'll thank these three witnesses for their statements and let them sit down. Now, we also have eight other special guests. (Start walking through the class putting on name tags.) These gentlemen didn't have quite the vision of the previous three, but still had an incredible experience. We'd like them to come forward and share some of it with us. You know who you are. Please come up.

DR: Hmm, there seem to be a lot of you. Let's see how we can organize this. Four of you are named Whitmer--are you related? Let's have you stand together.

Christian Whitmer: Yes, Ms. Rather. We are related. I am Christian Whitmer, and these are three of my brothers--Jacob, Peter Jr. and John. My fourth brother, David was one of the 3 witnesses that spoke previously. Actually, Hiram Page should join our group, too, as he is my brother-in-law, married to my sister Catherine.

DR: Thank you, sir, for clarifying that. Now those three that are left all seem to be named Smith. Have we another family group?

Joseph Smith, Senior: Ah, yes, Ms. Rather. I am Joseph Smith, senior. And these are my two sons Hyrum and Samuel. I am, of course, the father of the prophet, Joseph Smith junior.

DR: Now that we have that all organized, Mr. Smith senior, would you please tell us about the experience that the eight of you had.

J. Smith, Sr.: On the day after the three witnesses had their marvelous vision, in June 1829, Joseph gathered us together at the home of Peter Whitmer, Senior. Joseph and Emma had been living there while they finished the translation of the Book of Mormon. We had the blessing of actually seeing the plates, holding them, turning their gold pages and seeing the curious characters engraved on them. It was an experience I will never forget, nor deny. I shared it with many people until my death in 1840.

Hyrum Smith: The plates were like nothing I have seen before or since on this earth. Of course, I was martyred with my brother, the prophet, in defense of my testimony of the Book of Mormon and the restoration of the gospel.

Samuel Smith: I was the third person baptized into the church after Joseph and Oliver. They heard me praying in the woods on the way back from their baptisms and returned to the Susquehanna River then and there to baptize me. It was a blessing in my life to participate in the restoration of the gospel, and particularly to see the plates and know that Joseph had translated them by the power of God. I was riding to Carthage to visit my brothers in jail when I was met on the road by the mob leaving the jail. I was on a fast horse and reached the sad scene just after its conclusion. It was my duty to take the bodies back to Nauvoo. I became ill and died just two weeks later, strong in my testimony.

DR: It sounds as if the Smith family has a strong commitment to the gospel and to this testimony printed in the Book of Mormon. Now, let's hear from the Whitmers.

Jacob Whitmer: I am the second son in the Whitmer family. We all became acquainted with Joseph Smith through our brother David, when he brought Joseph to live in our father's home to finish the translation of the Book of Mormon. As the plates were in our home, we were naturally curious to see them. When the translation work was finished, we had that privilege.

Peter Whitmer, Jr.: Yes, it was an amazing sight--those plates of gold. None of us had ever seen anything of that glory. It would have been worth a great deal of money to the world, but we knew that the real worth was in the words of the Lord to us that came from those plates. My brother, Christian, died in 1835, and I in 1836, but we both testified of the truthfulness of our testimonies and the reality of those plates throughout the persecutions we faced with the saints in Missouri.

John Whitmer: Unfortunately, along with my brothers David and Jacob and Hiram Page I left the church in 1838. The persecutions were too great for my weak soul. My pride and lack of humility hindered my growth in the gospel. However, none of us ever denied that we had seen and held the plates--not even in the face of enemies of the church after we had left the church.

Hiram Page: Yes, I too, left the church, but throughout my life I rejoiced that I had been privileged to see the plates and be one of the eight special witnesses. I was always true to that experience and would bear my testimony of it whenever the opportunity arose.

DR: This is a fascinating story. Are there any questions from the audience? Yes, Ms. Jane Pauley? To whom would you like to address your question?

Jane Pauley: I guess I'll ask it of Mr. Smith, senior. Let me get this straight. You eight did not have the same vision as the previous three. Did you see an angel and hear the voice of the Lord?

Joseph Smith, senior: No, Ms. Pauley. That is part of the vision of the three witnesses. We just saw the plates as shown to us by my son, Joseph. However the Holy Ghost bore strong witness to each of us in our hearts that Joseph had made a correct translation of these plates through the power of the Lord. We also knew that the plates were very old, and not recently created by Joseph.

DR: I see we have Mr. Peter Jennings with us today. It's nice to see you here. Do you have a question?

Peter Jennings: Yes, Ms. Rather. I would like to ask it of the Whitmers who left the church--John as spokesman, I guess. I don't quiteunderstand how you left Joseph Smith's organization, and still supported this wild story of gold plates from old Indians.

John Whitmer: Actually, I think that fact that we left the church organization makes our testimonies stand even stronger. It was an extremely difficult time. We were living in Missouri and were severely persecuted. The saints in Kirtland had business reverses and the church was bankrupt. It was a strain on our families and our endurance. We simply didn't have the strength to withstand the buffetings of Satan, and left the church, to our detriment, and the detriment of our families. However, we each knew what we had seen. It was a physical experience to handle the plates, and a spiritual experience to know that they were preserved and translated by the power of God. We could not deny that.

DR: Any other questions? No? Well, thank you for your cooperation today. You may be seated. In summary, we have three witnesses who saw a vision of an angel who showed them the plates along with other artifacts from the box on the Hill Cumorah. They heard the voice of the Lord. Then we have eight witnesses who were shown just the plates by Joseph Smith. All in all, an amazing story, but one which has proven to have world-wide impact over the past 168 years. Thank you for coming. Good Day.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_Gadianton Plumber

Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _Gadianton Plumber »

why me wrote:
Gadianton Plumber wrote:Thank you. They are attesting the held metal plates. Now, for further clarification, how does this translate that they were authentic? How does this establish that the Book of Mormon was authentic?

I don't know...being shown by a supernatural power may suffice. But if this were all a fraud, we will need to introduce a metal smith to hatch the plates with a gold appearance.

But that's not what they were attesting to. They said they saw the metal plates, right? Is it beyond imaginable that Joseph Smith could have made metal plates? I wonder why the witnesses are cited as irrefutable evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon if all they are claiming is that they saw metal plates, gold in appearance? Why is it convincing to you, whyme?
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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _beastie »

I don't know...being shown by a supernatural power may suffice. But if this were all a fraud, we will need to introduce a metal smith to hatch the plates with a gold appearance.


Hmm, let's see, a metal smith, a metal smith... plates with a gold appearance....copper would fit the bill.... so maybe a coppersmith...plates that looked like they could be part of a book.....

Gee, well, this is overwhelming. If only there were some character closely associated with Joseph Smith and the Book of Mormon who was actually involved in the printing business, and would have thereby had access to copper printing plates. If only.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _beastie »

Oh, I forgot this part:

Visitors to Palmyra, N.Y. are advised to seek out the site of the old Sherman Carriage Co. at what is now the corner of Prospect and Main in downtown Palmyra. The Carriage building burned down in 1868 but its blacksmith shop remained standing until after the turn of the century. The original Sherman wagon shop and its smithy were built in the 1820s by Rhodes Sherman, Sr. Sherman's son Alson was a contemporary of Joseph Smith, Jr. and Oliver Cowdery and it seems that he was privy to some details about various secret activities carried on by those two in his father's shop in about 1828. Oliver Cowdery was then a part-time coppermith who possessed considerable skill in preparing copper engraving plates for the old-fashoned hand printing presses of that period.


http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natr1988.htm
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_beastie
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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _beastie »

Now, if only it could be shown that it wasn't uncommon to claim extraordinary religious visions at that time, and in that particular region. If only it could be shown that religious fervor in those days were sometimes expressed in terms of miraculous visions.....

Do these sound familiar?

"I saw two spirits, which I knew at the first sight. But if I had the tongue of an Angel I could not describe their glory, for they brought the joys of heaven with them. One was God, my Maker, almost in bodily shape like a man. His face was, as it were a flame of Fire, and his body, as it had been a Pillar and a cloud. In looking steadfastly to discern features, I could see none, but a small glimpse would appear in some other place. Below him stood Jesus Christ my Redeemer, in perfect shape like a man---His face was not ablaze, but had the countenance of fire, being bright and shining. His Father's will appeared to be his! All was condescension, peace, and love."



"... I went into the woods ... a light appeared from heaven.... My mind seemed to rise in that light to the throne of God and the Lamb.... The Lamb once slain appeared to my understanding, and while viewing him, I felt such love to him as I never felt to any thing earthly.... It is not possible for me to tell how long I remained in that situation ..."


Dissatisfied with the religions he had tried, ______ prayed for further guidance, and in 1816, according to his account, "the Lord revealed to me in a vision of the night an angel," whom _____ asked about the right way. The angel told him that the churches were corrupt and that God would soon raise up an apostolic church. _______ printed up an account of his visions and was still distributing them and looking for the apostolic church when he stopped in Palmyra.


______ knew of a "grove of woods" that lay north of Adams. He set forth one morning for work and was compelled that he must accept God or die. He "turned and bent [his] course for that grove of woods, feeling that [he] must be alone and away from all human eyes, so that [he] could pour out [his] prayer to God."

______ determined to give his heart to God, but upon making his petition he found that he could not pray. When he attempted to pray he became "dumb," having "nothing to say to God." Rustling of leaves nearby led him to believe that other individuals were in his presence. Ultimately that thought led him to such a sense of conviction of personal wickedness that it took possession of him. _____ attempted to pray several times without success, leading him to the verge of despair. He recollected that "a great sinking and discouragement came over me at this point, and I felt almost too weak to stand upon my knees."

...it was dark, but "it appeared to [him] as if it was perfectly light." In that "lighted" room he came face to face [emphasis his] with Jesus Christ....______ "fell down at his feet and poured out [his] soul to him." Shortly thereafter, _____ received a mighty baptism of the Holy Ghost, which he characterized as a "wave of electricity" or "waves of love."


Maybe these were earlier versions of the First Vision, eh? Or maybe they were accounts by various people who lived in Joseph Smith's region at the time period, all claiming extraordinary visions, too.

http://www.mormonthink.com/firstvisionweb.htm#having
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
_why me
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Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _why me »

Gadianton Plumber wrote:But that's not what they were attesting to. They said they saw the metal plates, right? Is it beyond imaginable that Joseph Smith could have made metal plates? I wonder why the witnesses are cited as irrefutable evidence of the truthfulness of the Book of Mormon if all they are claiming is that they saw metal plates, gold in appearance? Why is it convincing to you, whyme?


And then we have the three witnesses who saw the angel and the plates. No one ever denied their testimony even though both Oliver and David had good reason to do so. Most of the witnesses took their testimony to their death and gave it again on their deathbed.

Joseph must have had a knack for doing all this in secret away from Emma and family. Difficult to do. The making of metal plates may be a noisey prospect and easy to discover. And then if we have sidney involved, the idea becomes even more absurd.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_why me
_Emeritus
Posts: 9589
Joined: Fri Feb 02, 2007 8:19 pm

Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _why me »

beastie wrote:Oh, I forgot this part:

Visitors to Palmyra, N.Y. are advised to seek out the site of the old Sherman Carriage Co. at what is now the corner of Prospect and Main in downtown Palmyra. The Carriage building burned down in 1868 but its blacksmith shop remained standing until after the turn of the century. The original Sherman wagon shop and its smithy were built in the 1820s by Rhodes Sherman, Sr. Sherman's son Alson was a contemporary of Joseph Smith, Jr. and Oliver Cowdery and it seems that he was privy to some details about various secret activities carried on by those two in his father's shop in about 1828. Oliver Cowdery was then a part-time coppermith who possessed considerable skill in preparing copper engraving plates for the old-fashoned hand printing presses of that period.


http://sidneyrigdon.com/dbroadhu/CA/natr1988.htm


Is this a joke? So here we have a second hand story found in Naked Truths about Mormonism? Interesting but...means nothing. Nice to be privy to secret activities....that may or may not have happened.
I intend to lay a foundation that will revolutionize the whole world.
Joseph Smith


We are “to feed the hungry, to clothe the naked, to provide for the widow, to dry up the tear of the orphan, to comfort the afflicted, whether in this church, or in any other, or in no church at all…”
Joseph Smith
_beastie
_Emeritus
Posts: 14216
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2006 2:26 am

Re: Why I left the LDS Church (Warning: *LONG*)

Post by _beastie »

Is this a joke? So here we have a second hand story found in Naked Truths about Mormonism? Interesting but...means nothing. Nice to be privy to secret activities....that may or may not have happened.


Which part do you think is a joke?

1. Oliver Cowdery was a coppersmith
2. Oliver Cowdery also was associated with the printing business
3. Printing businesses of that day used engraved copper printing plates
4. Copper can be easily confused with gold

All of these things are verified.
We hate to seem like we don’t trust every nut with a story, but there’s evidence we can point to, and dance while shouting taunting phrases.

Penn & Teller

http://www.mormonmesoamerica.com
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