Why LDS Mormons are not Christian.

[_beastie]

One cannot deny the Atonement by making it conditional without denying the centrality of Christ. Works are more important than the Atonement for the LDS. Or, the Atonement is roughly equivalent to baptism as a requirement for salvation. (for Christians, baptism is an outward reflection of an internal commitment, not needed for salvation) Works are similar. They are an outward reflection of an inward commitment, they do not save.

Do you understand that works versus grace is a debate not just between Mormonism and mainstream Christianity, but within different mainstream sects as well - sects that I doubt anyone would contest calling Christian?

Or, the Atonement is roughly equivalent to baptism as a requirement for salvation. (for Christians, baptism is an outward reflection of an internal commitment, not needed for salvation) Works are similar. They are an outward reflection of an inward commitment, they do not save.

There are other mainstream Christian faiths that require certain ordinances for salvation, as well - notably Catholics. Are they Christian?

When your definition succeeds in eliminating mainstream faiths like Catholicism, there's probably something wrong with your definition.

I don't remember a ranking for Jesus the Christ. I know it was one of the books we were allowed to read as missionaries.

[_Jason Bourne]

I was about to give a somewhat thoughtful reply. But I can see this thread is already degenerating into what I figured it would. Non Mormons telling Mormons what they think.

All I feel like doing now is refering those really interested to the theme of the Book of Mormon-please check the title page out first. Then read D&C 20:1-about 34 or so. Then read D&C 76.

Mormonism is complex and has lots of parts that are not mutually exclusive one to the other. To attempt to separate them and then say the Mormons don't make Jesus central to their faith is rather foolish. Though I understand who those who really don't want to delve into it can reach this conclusion. Keep in mind this comment from Joseph Smith:

"The fundamental principles of our religion are the testimony of the Apostles and Prophets, concerning Jesus Christ, that He died, was buried, and rose again the third day, and ascended into heaven; and all other things which pertain to our religion are only appendages to it" (TPJS, p. 121).

And this:

"Latter-day Saints believe in God the Father; his Son, Jesus Christ; and the Holy Ghost (A of F 1). These three Gods form the Godhead, which holds the keys of power over the universe. Each member of the Godhead is an independent personage, separate and distinct from the other two, the three being in perfect unity and harmony with each other (AF, chap. 2)." Encyclopedia of Mormonism

Mormons also view grace and works as inseparable. You cannot have one without the other. Faith in Christ through grave justifies us. Works are the sanctifying part that keep us in the saving covenant, the enduring to the and part, or abiding in Christ. Mormons reject eternal security and believe a man or woman can fall from grace thus the emphasis on works after one has entered into the saving covenant.

There is no question Jesus Christ and His atonement is central to LDS belief. Without if we have no religion or hope. There are many other parts to the LDS gospel that the LDS talk and teach about. Interestingly I think many of the uniqe things have taken less precedence and more has been focused on Jesus Christ and basic gospel ideas. And LDS are criticized for that now as well.

And oh by the way, once every four years the New Testament is the curriculum for the Church. Once very four years the Old Testament is. The other two years it is the Book of Mormon then the D&C.

[_Jason Bourne]

Mormons want to be known and accepted into the generic "Christian" faiths, which is why they cling to the KJV as the standard Bible they use. What they fail to mention is they use the JST "footnotes" and teach from the JST, so it's of little importance that they claim to use the KJV, which they do because the RLDS hold the rights to the JST.

In answering this question, I think it's best to define a faith by the doctrine it encompasses. One common denominator to all "Christian" faiths is they all believe Joseph Smith was a false prophet of God and reject Mormon doctrine as false. If a Christian wanted to call themselves a Jew, it would paint the same scenario, as Christians accept both old and new testaments, just as Mormons accept the Bible and Mormon doctrine.

To narrow down the definition, it's better to answer what a "Mormon" is rather than what a "Christian" is. What is a "Mormon" anyway? By definition, it's someone who places faith in Mormon doctrine. Add to that belief in Joseph Smith's magic rocks, Masonic rituals, polygamy/polyandry, racism, and the claim made by Joseph Smith's first vision (depending on which "first" vision you pick from), and Jesus Christ and God a "two distinct and separate personages" which goes against Christian doctrine. To combat this, Mormons will find passages in the KJV to support Joseph Smith's visions and ignore Mormon doctrine. In summation, I agree with you that Mormons are not Christians... they're Mormons.

http://mormonwatch.com/articles/OneTrueChurch.asp

Let's see what the "Saints" had to say about Christianity...

"Should you ask why we differ from other Christians, as they are called, it is simply because they are not Christians as the New Testament defines Christianity" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 10:230).

"Christianity...is a perfect pack of nonsense...the devil could not invent a better engine to spread his work than the Christianity of the nineteenth century." (John Taylor, Journal of Discourses, vol. 6, p.167); "Where shall we look for the true order or authority of God? It cannot be found in any nation of Christendom." (Journal of Discourses, 10:127).

"With a regard to true theology, a more ignorant people never lived than the present so-called Christian world" (Brigham Young, Journal of Discourses 8:199);

"Both Catholics and Protestants are nothing less than the 'whore of Babylon' whom the Lord denounces by the mouth of John the Revelator as having corrupted all the earth by their fornications and wickedness. Any person who shall be so corrupt as to receive a holy ordinance of the Gospel from the ministers of any of these apostate churches will be sent down to hell with them, unless they repent" (Orson Pratt, The Seer, p. 255).

"Doctrines were corrupted, authority lost, and a false order of religion took the place of the gospel of Jesus Christ, just as it had been the case in former dispensations, and the people were left in spiritual darkness." (President Joseph Fielding Smith, Doctrines of Salvation, p.266). "For hundreds of years the world was wrapped in a veil of spiritual darkness, until there was not one fundamental truth belonging to the place of salvation ...Joseph Smith declared that in the year 1820 the Lord revealed to him that all the 'Christian' churches were in error, teaching for commandments the doctrines of men" (Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 3, p.282).

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

"no man or woman in this dispensation will ever enter into the celestial kingdom of God without the consent of Joseph Smith...every man and woman must have the certificate of Joseph Smith, junior, as a passport to their entrance into the mansion where God and Christ are" (Brigham Young , Journal of Discourses, vol. 7, p.289).

This post is exactly why it is a total waste of time to discuss this. Thews, do you realize the historical context of the quotes you think Trump some sort of position for you? Do you realize the rhetoric was in the context by those who made the comments that the LDS Church was the only true Christianity and the rest were apostate and corrupt? The Mormon leaders were putting down what they thought was FALSE Christianity while believing they had true Christianity. They were not saying that LDS were not Christian.

[_karl61]

"rebaptism" after excommunication denies the atonement.

Absolutely brilliant. If the Church controls the Atonement, who is the savior??

when I was nineteen and called before a high council court, it would have been nice to hear at the end that the sins that I had committed had already been paid for, that Jesus was my Savior and I needed to look to him and be grateful for his sacrifice, this could have been a lightning strike for me, instead, I was dirty and their job was to keep the church "clean". It only reinforced the thought that I was a bad person, "unworthy". Frantically, my thoughts were only to get back in the Church. That was priority number one. But when I would go back I really did not hear inspiring stories about Jesus but of other guys "missions", the LDS culture was reinforced, which only reinforced the thought that I was a bad person, "unworthy", not whole.

[_Jason Bourne]

[There is] "no salvation without accepting Joseph Smith. If Joseph Smith was verily a prophet, and if he told the truth...no man can reject that testimony without incurring the most dreadful consequences, for he cannot enter the kingdom of God" (Joseph Fielding Smith , Doctrines of Salvation, vol. 1, p.190).

That about sums it up.

Once again ignorance and lack of understanding context is bliss. This is totally true IF Joseph Smith was a prophet/apostle, just as true as it is that one cannot reject the biblical words of Paul, Peter and John since they are the means where by we know the doctrine of Christ.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

Jason and Beastie: How would you alter the definition? Is there a point where a faith is not Christian?

No, Catholics are not Christian, but they are much closer than LDSism. Other Christian faiths are in the grey zone, sure, my point is that LDS Mormonism is firmly outside the acceptable limits.

[_Jason Bourne]

I don't remember a ranking for Jesus the Christ. I know it was one of the books we were allowed to read as missionaries.

There is no ranking. The LDS standard works are paramount. Other books are encouraged and recommended for missionaries. I would guess that today, Jesus the Christ is more popular than the other two GP asks about. And I think hardly anyone reads Richards book much these days.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

Once again ignorance and lack of understanding context is bliss. This is totally true IF Joseph Smith was a prophet/apostle, just as true as it is that one cannot reject the biblical words of Paul, Peter and John since they are the means where by we know the doctrine of Christ.

No. This merely illustrates another example of why they are not Christian. Salvation is found through Joseph Smith, not JC. I would accept anyone rejecting Paul or anyone. They are not Christ. Joseph is not the messenger, he is the Way.

Oh, and I was Mormon 99 percent of my life. I know what my faith believes as much as you.

[_Gadianton Plumber]

I don't remember a ranking for Jesus the Christ. I know it was one of the books we were allowed to read as missionaries.

There is no ranking. The LDS standard works are paramount. Other books are encouraged and recommended for missionaries. I would guess that today, Jesus the Christ is more popular than the other two GP asks about. And I think hardly anyone reads Richards book much these days.

They are? The hell they are. It is the words of the "prophet" that matter, or DC 89 would still be followed as written.

[_beastie]

Jason and Beastie: How would you alter the definition? Is there a point where a faith is not Christian?

No, Catholics are not Christian, but they are much closer than LDSism. Other Christian faiths are in the grey zone, sure, my point is that LDS Mormonism is firmly outside the acceptable limits.

Catholics aren't Christian?????? What use is this definition at all?

I would define Christian as someone who accepts Jesus Christ as their personal savior.

Anything more than that gets into theological disputes which eliminate half of mainstream Christianity along with Mormonism. Any definition that eliminates half of faiths accepted as mainstream Christian is useless.