Can I get a straight answer to an honest question?

[_ttribe]

I started with that assumption, too. But God sent an angel with a drawn sword. Surely Emma could have received some kind of witness. It just doesn't make sense.

Couple of issues here - 1) we don't know that she didn't and rejected it; and 2) the drawn sword matter was not present in each of these sealings/marriages.

[_dblagent007]

I'm proceeding from the assumption that God really did command Joseph Smith to practice polygamy. Under that assumption, it appears he perceived himself to be in a no-win situation. Obey God and anger his wife, or obey his wife and anger God. in my opinion, he tried to find a middle solution and it was suboptimal (again, in my opinion).

Do you think God approved of how Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?

This is where the train goes off the tracks for me. It is utterly unfathomable that God (as taught to me by the Church) could ever sanction the way Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. This leads me to reject it in its entirety as an uninspired mistake. Once you can do that with one very large principle, it's not too hard to do it with smaller things like counsel not to wear two or more pairs of earrings.

[_ttribe]

Do you think God approved of how Joseph Smith practiced polygamy?

On the whole? I don't know. Do I think there's a pretty good chance some errors were made? Yes.

This is where the train goes off the tracks for me. It is utterly unfathomable that God (as taught to me by the Church) could ever sanction the way Joseph Smith practiced polygamy. This leads me to reject it in its entirety as an uninspired mistake. Once you can do that with one very large principle, it's not too hard to do it with smaller things like counsel not to wear two or more pairs of earrings.

Baby, bath water.

[_Nimrod]

and 2) the drawn sword matter was not present in each of these sealings/marriages.

I'm sorry, but I am bemused by the pun (I trust, ttribe, was unintended) and I can't believe I posted my bemusement before KA.

[_Aristotle Smith]

But hey, plural marriage was in the ol' testament so this should be no problem for me!!!

The problem with that line of reasoning is that there is absolutely no evidence in the Old Testament that polygamy was seen as religious in any way. I also don't see any instance of God commanding people to take plural wives. In fact, I don't really see a way of reading the Old Testament in context that has it taking a stand on the issue one way or the other. Expecting them to take a religious stand on polygamy would be like expecting the GAs to take a religious stand on re-carpeting your house. Both are complete non sequitors.

But I can tell you that the reasoning that ancient people used to arrive at those kinds of arrangements and the social realities that allowed it to take place are completely foreign to the modern world. Thank goodness for that.

[_ttribe]

and 2) the drawn sword matter was not present in each of these sealings/marriages.

I'm sorry, but I am bemused by the pun (I trust, ttribe, was unintended) and I can't believe I posted my bemusement before KA.

Holy crap! I totally didn't intend that, but now that you point it out...OOPS!

[_Dr. Shades]

What is so problematic about this is that this behavior is exactly what you would expect to see from a leader of a new cult, that most people would agree was man-made and uninspired.

I don't disagree with this statement.

Your integrity is to be commended.

[_Aristotle Smith]

Can we all agree that there is solid evidence that Joseph entered into and consummated marriages without Emma's consent? Why or why not?

If this is what happened, how do we reconcile this with his being a prophet? Does anyone believe he was commanded of God to hide this from Emma?

I honestly would like to know what people think. I don't think that makes me a Joseph-hater.

Yes, there is solid evidence that the marriages were consumated and behind Emma's back. If it was common knowledge that they were simple dynastic sealings then no one would have cared, including Emma. As for it being behind Emma's back the case of the Partridge sisters (as you cite) is solid evidence for that.

For me, the issue that made me crack wasn't so much hiding it from Emma, it was the methods used to get young women to marry him. The stories of Helen Mar Kimball and Lucy Walker are the ones that give me the hardest time because so much coercion was used to gain their consent. Why coerce if it is of God?

I still remember reading about Helen Mar Kimball. I realized then that I didn't care if Joseph Smith was a prophet, I wouldn't trust him with my wife or daughter so who cares if he was a prophet. "Doesn't seduce and sleep with your wife and kids" seems to be a minimal requirement for being a prophet. And to be completely honest, if he had pulled something like that with my daughter my first reaction would have been to kill him. And that was the real deal breaker for me, why bother believing in a person as prophet when you are glad that he's dead. Cue howls of presentism and any other BS excuse apologists can come up with.

So for me it really came down to a decision, do I want to believe that Joseph was a prophet, commanded of God to do that, and that God was a complete bastard. Or did I want to believe that God had nothing to do with it and that Joseph was out to lunch. I chose the latter, it seemed like the obvious choice.

[_MsJack]

People spill a lot of ink (and bandwidth) over polyandry and Joseph Smith's teenage brides, but this has always been the most difficult issue for me as far as early Mormon polygamy is concerned. I'm especially tired of the "blame Emma" culture that has developed to deal with this difficulty.

That ttribe is willing to address it and acknowledge the difficulties with it proves to me, once again, what an upstanding and honest person he is.

/salute

For me, the issue that made me crack wasn't so much hiding it from Emma, it was the methods used to get young women to marry him. The stories of Helen Mar Kimball and Lucy Walker are the ones that give me the hardest time because so much coercion was used to gain their consent. Why coerce if it is of God?

This is #2 on my list.

[_Themis]

Can we all agree that there is solid evidence that Joseph entered into and consummated marriages without Emma's consent? Why or why not?

Nope. Their is always going to be a few idiots or willfully ignorant people who will not accept it, even though the evidence is clear and you would be hard pressed to find many professional apologists who don't accept it.

If this is what happened, how do we reconcile this with his being a prophet? Does anyone believe he was commanded of God to hide this from Emma?

Hard to believe but yes some do. Supposedly God sent an angel to Joseph to tell him Mary was not sleeping around, yet God couldn't do that for Emma. I have a hard time thinking if he had, Joseph would have never needed to hide it from Emma. She may not have been happy about the practice, but at least she wouldn't have taken it out on Joseph knowing God commanded it. Beastie comments are very astute that this is very common for Religious leaders to take sexual advantage with followers, and in many cases tell people this is what God wants.