Joseph Smith Megathread

[_huckelberry]

Because his wives were not legal wives his comment about having only one wife was truthful despite its success in deceiving people.

That is the kind of honesty one may expect from Joseph Smith.

Helen got a husband with little time for her who could not even admit in public to the marriage. She like other humans had some hope for a real husband who could love and care for her.
Disappointed in this she should have been pleased that the husband who took all that hope from her did not have sex with her.

So what?

[_Dr. Shades]

Of course Smith had sex with his wives. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any need to marry them.

[_cinepro]

Multiple First Vision Accounts

In another thread TChild stated:

So, when an ex-believer expresses dismay that there are multiple first vision accounts (a fact), for example …

To which I replied:

As I was driving home today, I passed an old fashioned bakery called "Pat's", an exotic automobile dealership with a 2009 Ferrari on the lot, a motocross store, and a computer repair shop.

Here is the story, as I explained to my mother:
Mom, on my way home I drove past Pat's Bakery today and remembered when you used to take me there for doughnuts on Saturdays.

Here is the story, as I explained it to my friend who happens to love Ferraris:
Dude! I saw a sweet F70 at the exotic dealership on my way home today, we should go check it out!

Here is the story, as I explained to my Dungeons and Dragons club:
Hey guys, on my way home today I saw this new computer shop, we need to go check it out. I hear they stock the new GeForce!

Here is the story, as I explained to my brother, who is heavily into motocross:
Hey bro, I drove past your favorite shop today! Those motocross cycles looked sweet in the window.

Joseph Smith told variations of his story, too. It doesn't make the First Vision untrue.

Suppose, 10 years later, you were having an argument with a friend about the existence of bigfoot. You then tell your friend that 10 years earlier, on the day you saw the Ferrari and Motorcycles and donut shop and computer store, you were also driving down a rural road and two bigfoots walked right in front of your car, and one of them even spoke to you!

Would the 10 years between the event and your retelling of it make someone more inclined to believe you, or less? Would the event's specific applicability to the argument at hand make someone more inclined to believe it, or less?

And while you were probably justified in reporting those details most applicable to each person, would it be a little strange that you left out the part of the story most fantastic, memorable and noteworthy in each telling?

Joseph Smith didn't talk about seeing the local general store, a church building, a feed and tack, and a printer. His story is the equivalent of having seen and talked with two bigfoots.

[_Inconceivable]

Simpleton Simon,

I have yet to see anything you produce as nothing more than Cliff Note versions of books you could not possibly have read, let alone own.

You resemble a poser who relies upon the conclusions of those allegedly well read that you wish to ally yourself with.

I'll give an example. If you had read Compton, you would know that he references instances where Smith penetrated various mistresses on numerous occasions. This would make his writings an enemy to your argument that he may be credible in the instance of Helen Kimball. Do you have any idea who Compton is?!

Additionally, I can't imagine you have ever read each of the 4 versions of the First Vision. To compare them with the differences of the 4 gospels tells me that you probably have not studied them either. Each of the 4 gospels is a seperate witness that corroborates the sum of the whole. The First Vision fairy tale does no such thing. Smith couldn't even get something as simple as the names, characters and purposes to match.

Huckleberry is dead-on in his conclusion that Smith's intention was to deceive his followers as well as his enemies with the referenced statement. What he secretly bound on earth he also taught was bound in heaven - laws which were legal in the sight of the Mormon God.

And honestly, I don't give a rat's ass what category you pigeon hole Smith into. I don't care if he thought it was true, or even if he conversed with an actual Mormon God. The Mormon God is an impotent fraud that is no more credible than those that claim allegence to him.

[_Willy Law]

Sorry Simon, I could not get past your complete BS explanation of the first vision. You are truly lying to yourself and I feel sorry for you. Let me know when you stop the mental gymnastics and want to honestly discuss these issues.

[Guest]

Hello,

8/29/10: I went past a Krispy Kreme store yesterday. I saw a cop hitting a white kid with his baton. I wonder what happened? * I think I saw Daniel C. Peterson's car there.

9/10/10: I had driven past a Krispy Kreme when I saw a gaggle of cops kicking the crap out of a black kid. I stopped to figure out what happened when one of the cops told me to keep on going or I'd "get it, too!". I was so scared! * I definitely saw Mr. Peterson's car in the parking lot!

11/11/10: I was downtown when I saw a bunch of cops beating the crap out of some Mexicans who were demonstrating against illegal immigration! Holy crap! I went to Krisy Kreme afterward and ate a donut. I saw Mr. Daniel C. Peterson there.

1/13/11: I was going to a Krispy Kreme to get my favorite donut when I ran across what can only be described as race riots!! There were cops beating the crap out of some blacks and Mexicans. There were some Rednecks with Confederate flags. I don't know what was happening but I was freaked out! Thank god Mr. Peterson was at the store or I would have lost it!!

3/15/11: I went to Krispy Kreme to meet Dr. Peterson to go over some KEP theories I've been fleshing out, and oddly enough I witnessed the cops arresting a Mexican kid, a black kid, and this Rednecky white kid for trespassing. So weird!


V/R
Dr. Cam

[_AtticusFinch]

what a silly comparison when you compared allegedly seeing God to seeing something while you were driving. Unless, of course, you feel that seeing some object while driving rates the same excitement as seeing the LDS god. Which, probably should not be surprising since the LDS God was once a sinful man and any PERSON you saw while driving could, under LDS doctrine, be someone's God someday.

[_beastie]

Because his wives were not legal wives his comment about having only one wife was truthful despite its success in deceiving people.

That is the kind of honesty one may expect from Joseph Smith.

Apparently it's also the kind of honesty one may expect from believers like Simon.

[_Simon Belmont]

I think it is funny stuff when Mormons say Smith's sealing weren't marriages.

They were recognized marriages in the Church, they were not all legal marriages. There is no evidence that Joseph thought of anyone other than Emma as his one true love.

You forgot the pious fraud possibility which I think is the most reasonable. People are rarely if ever pure honest or total fraud. I think Joseph could have believed strongly yet willing to do some con in order to help people believe which in his mind was doing what God wanted. You don't have to have a mental issue either. There is also a host of mental problems people can have as well as how bad they have them.

That possibility was never given to Joseph. They were not there to get a confession, and not all the things they took issue with were religious.

Could you provide evidence for this. Again the problem is assuming a total fraud which is not likely, and he again didn't have much of a choice. You also have to look at what he gains or loses in confessing.

So, a combination of option 1 and option 2?

What happens when the pious fraud is faced with beatings, tarrings, verbal slander of himself, his colleagues, and his family? The official Joseph Smith website notes that:

He was besieged with dozens of unjustified lawsuits and was often in jeopardy of his life. He was poisoned, beaten, tarred, unjustly imprisoned, and once sentenced to die by firing squad. He and Emma seldom had a home of their own, and six of their children died in infancy. Financial difficulties continually plagued the family.

I believe that this would drive any person, sane or not, to recount their supposed fraudulent activities as a measure to save the lives of their loved ones, their colleagues, and themselves. Yes, there was no guarantee that this would work, but in fight or flight mode, a person will attempt anything! If not himself, then his colleagues would surely "rat him out" to save their own lives. It is human nature.

This is clearly wrong. People have followed numerous religious cons, even dying for them.

And in every other case, the fraud is eventually discovered. Not true with the Mormons.

Although this is a more complicated issue, it should be clear that witnesses have stuck to other stories you and I don't believe.

Nothing is more compelling to me than to realize that Martin Harris continued to actively testify of the Book of Mormon's truthfulness. No, I do not believe some other things he may have been witness to, but combined with the other compelling evidence, I do believe the Book of Mormon.

Highly intelligent people are not immune to mental issues, plus what kind of problem are we talking about, their are so many different kinds.

You are correct. If there were, however, any sign of mental incompetency, illness, insanity, or anything else, wouldn't it have been written about, documented verbally . . . something?

Doesn't sound like your studies were all that extensive. I believe Todd Compton does provide evidence for sexual relations with some of his wives, and I don't think he did with Helen. I'm not sure why people want to think somehow Joseph's polygamy is different then BY. Why is it that a number of apologists who actually do have more extensive research on polygamy accept that he did have sex with some of his wives?

That was referring to one example. The point I was making was that the polygamous relationships of Joseph Smith were most likely nothing like you, as modern people, imagine them to be. I referenced Compton in that example. It would be silly to think that Smith never had sexual relations with his other wives, and I am sure he did. He was a "rough stone rolling," he was a moral man.

There is more than enough evidence, first hand, to conclude that a handful if not many of Josephs plural marriages included sexual intercourse.

I do not deny this.

Joseph was a pious fraud, he wanted to start a revolution in the religious world in accordance to one of his grandfathers dreams and he believed in what he was doing. I have no doubt Smith believed he had visions, that he believed he saw the angel Moroni and that he believed he was acting as a seer when he peeped inside his hat at a little stone. His spiritual experiences were real to him, though in reality they were entirely manufactured in one way or another.

So, you're going with option 2. Read above.

Of course Smith had sex with his wives. Otherwise there wouldn't have been any need to marry them.

The need was revealed by God to Joseph Smith.

I'll give an example. If you had read Compton, you would know that he references instances where Smith penetrated various mistresses on numerous occasions.

I do not deny this. It has no bearing on whether he was what he claimed to be. I used Compton in that one example.

Additionally, I can't imagine you have ever read each of the 4 versions of the First Vision.

You should exercise your imagination more often. I have extensively studied every aspect of Joseph Smith.

The Mormon God is an impotent fraud that is no more credible than those that claim allegence to him.

Let us attempt to keep this family friendly, shall we? Please do not comment on things which you do not understand.

[_Simon Belmont]

Some critics argue that Joseph Smith carried a "six-shooter" with him to Carthage Jail, because he intended to destroy his killers. This is false claim, as the gun (a pepperbox pistol, not a six shooter) was later given to them by visiting Cyrus Wheelock. This is documented in the History of the Church:

While confined in jail on the false charge of treason, Joseph and Hyrum were allowed the privilege of visitors. Cyrus Wheelock, a friend of the Prophet’s, managed to secure a pass to see Joseph and slipped both Joseph and Hyrum handguns. The Smith brothers reluctantly accepted the guns and Hyrum said, “‘I hate to use such things or to see them used.’ ‘So do I,’ said Joseph, ‘but we may have to, to defend ourselves.’” (HC 6:608.)