Joseph Smith Megathread

[_truth dancer]

Hi Simon,

I would highly recommend you read, True Believer, by Eric Hoffer.

;-)

The truth is, if anyone else behaved as did Joseph Smith, you would not so quickly and easily make excuses for him.

Personally, I don't much care about all the excuses. For me, I have to ask, is this how God works? Really? This messy, dishonest, deceptive, demeaning, behavior is OK with God? This is the best God can do to bring about the one and only true church to earth? God approves of Joseph Smith's treatment of girls, women, and men? God couldn't come up with a way to bring forth truth that makes sense, and looks like something other than convoluted nonsense? The one man God chose to bring forth the fullness of the gospel is no different than all the other cult and/or religious leaders who use girls and women for their sexual pleasures and power?

Really Simon? I mean step back for a minute and think about it. (smile)

~td~

[_Simon Belmont]

Hi Simon,

I would highly recommend you read, True Believer, by Eric Hoffer.

;-)

The truth is, if anyone else behaved as did Joseph Smith, you would not so quickly and easily make excuses for him.

We have the issue of looking at Joseph Smith through our twenty-first century eyes. We must judge him in context of his own time, truth dancer.

Personally, I don't much care about all the excuses. For me, I have to ask, is this how God works? Really? This messy, dishonest, deceptive, demeaning, behavior is OK with God?

God works through people. People are human and make mistakes; in fact, we make many mistakes, and so did Joseph. He was not perfect, and I do not claim that he was. His shortcomings have no bearing on whether he is what he claimed to be -- a prophet of God.

God couldn't come up with a way to bring forth truth that makes sense, and looks like something other than convoluted nonsense?

An extremely important aspect of the Gospel is that of faith. If God simply visited everyone in 1830, and said "okay guys, my church is back, and I will personally visit everyone who questions this" that would leave no room for faith. That is not His plan.

The one man God chose to bring forth the fullness of the gospel is no different than all the other cult and/or religious leaders who use girls and women for their sexual pleasures and power?

I am sorry that you feel that way truth dancer. Exploiting women is always wrong. However, I must take issue with your assertion that Joseph Smith used "girls and women for their sexual pleasures and power," because I see no evidence of it.

[_huckelberry]

Simon stated,
" They were recognized marriages in the Church, they were not all legal marriages. There is no evidence that Joseph thought of anyone other than Emma as his one true love."

This is exactly why it was a nightmare for Helen not whether or not they had sex. It is perfectly reasonable to considered that in her case sex was deferred to a future time.

I think this sort of disregard for the basic feelings of other is strong evidence of an ego out of control. That is the form of mental illness Joseph Smith shows evidence of, not some delirium making him irrational.

[_Inconceivable]

Cliff Note Simon,

Once again, I see no evidence that you have actually read Compton, the various innane First Vision accounts, or even the New Testament. You are so very typical of the Rameumtum Mormon that is wofully unfamiliar with even his own standard works.

You haven't the capacity to comment on the original works because you don't know them and have no intention of learning them for yourself.

Lazy poser.

Come back after you have an original thought.

[_zeezrom]

I just read about the greek psalter for the first time. Is it true that he claimed it to be Egyptian?

I read about this on Mormon think.

I make no claim to his character on this thread but rather want to know if this is what Joseph claimed.

[_Trevor]

"What a thing it is for a man to be accused of committing adultery, and having seven wives, when I can only find one. I am the same man, and as innocent as I was fourteen years ago; and I can prove them all perjurers." (History of Church, vol. 6, page 411)

Joseph Smith did not lie. He only had one legal wife, although he was sealed to many women. As I have said before, these sealings were probably not sexual in nature. He loved Emma, she was his wife and his true love.

So, let me get this straight.* You are saying that we can rest assured that Joseph Smith did not lie about polygamy or not committing adultery, because 1) sealing and marriage are, in your view, two different things inasmuch as the sealings were not legally recognized marriages, and 2) because we can't prove conclusively that he did have sexual relations with these women he was sealed to.

Wow. I have to say I am impressed. So, in other words, Joseph Smith didn't outright lie, he merely created a false impression to mislead his followers for his own benefit, and ostensibly their good. I guess you are right. Deliberately misleading is better than lying(?), and you, like Joseph Smith, cannot be accused of lying now, but only framing things in such a way that they appear to be something other than their most reasonable and straightforward sense.

LOL. Welcome to the world of Mopologetics, Simon.**

Have you considered a legal career? Or something in politics? You're a natural.

*I offer this as criticism of Belmont's astounding sleight of hand and not of Joseph Smith for marrying multiple women without the permission of his first wife, Emma Smith, and most likely sleeping with these other women. After all, he felt he was commanded by God to do so, and who am I to say that he was not?

**Which is not to be confused with the world of LDS apologetics.

[_Simon Belmont]

I think this sort of disregard for the basic feelings of other is strong evidence of an ego out of control. That is the form of mental illness Joseph Smith shows evidence of, not some delirium making him irrational.

So you're going with option number 2 as well. Please read the OP as to why option 2 is not plausible.

[_Jason Bourne]

We have the issue of looking at Joseph Smith through our twenty-first century eyes. We must judge him in context of his own time, truth dancer.

Joseph Smith unfortunately did many things that were repugnant to many of his neighbors who lived in his own time. Polygamy was certainly one of those. Culturally it was abhorrent to the world in which he lived. And by the way, your foolish arguments about polygamy do not deserve even responses. If this is what you need to make you feel good about it have at it. But it is pretty clear you are not the authority on Joseph Smith that you pretend to be.

Personally, I don't much care about all the excuses. For me, I have to ask, is this how God works? Really? This messy, dishonest, deceptive, demeaning, behavior is OK with God?

God works through people. People are human and make mistakes; in fact, we make many mistakes, and so did Joseph. He was not perfect, and I do not claim that he was. His shortcomings have no bearing on whether he is what he claimed to be -- a prophet of God.

However, when one has to decide whether they trust the person that says God is appearing to them and speaking to them well them his mistakes, egregious errors and even intentional things the person claiming supernatural communication does then they have absolute bearing on the decision.

God couldn't come up with a way to bring forth truth that makes sense, and looks like something other than convoluted nonsense?

An extremely important aspect of the Gospel is that of faith. If God simply visited everyone in 1830, and said "okay guys, my church is back, and I will personally visit everyone who questions this" that would leave no room for faith. That is not His plan.

You know who says this? The very few that claim God speaks to them. Maybe the prophets are not being honest about this.

The one man God chose to bring forth the fullness of the gospel is no different than all the other cult and/or religious leaders who use girls and women for their sexual pleasures and power?

I am sorry that you feel that way truth dancer. Exploiting women is always wrong. However, I must take issue with your assertion that Joseph Smith used "girls and women for their sexual pleasures and power," because I see no evidence of it.

Joseph Smith used his power and position and applied duress that would come from his position and power to persuade women to enter into plural marriage, yes dude, MARRIAGE, with him. And yes, many of these marriages were consummated. And yes he did lie about it, to the public but even more seriously, to his wife Emma. He hid many of these marriages from here and even did a mock wedding when she gave her permission for him to marry the Partridge girls when she did not know he had already married them.

Tell me Simon, why are you so ok with what Joseph Smith did with polygamy but would never accept a man like Wayne Bent and his polygamy in the name of God. Check this out:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lord_Our_R ... ess_Church

http://www.mahalo.com/wayne-bent

What really is so different from Mr. Bent and Joseph Smith? Both claim God is telling them

[_Simon Belmont]

Cliff Note Simon,
Once again, I see no evidence that you have actually read Compton,

That is because I have not given you any. I cited Compton in that one example.

the various innane First Vision accounts, or even the New Testament.

ad nauseum, I assure you.

You are so very typical of the Rameumtum Mormon that is wofully unfamiliar with even his own standard works.

You have yet to demonstrate your assertions about my character, irrelevant as they may be.

You haven't the capacity to comment on the original works because you don't know them and have no intention of learning them for yourself.

Come back after you have an original thought.

And you, when clearly fighting a losing battle, resort to personal attacks. Another one bites the ad hominem dust.

[_zeezrom]

How do you know god works through people. Does god need to do that?